Talmud Bavli
Talmud Bavli

Chullin 152

CommentaryAudioShareBookmark
1

מר בר רב אשי אמר

Mar son of R'Ashi said: Where they are transparent though not white [it is part of the juncture of the tendons].

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
2

כיון דזיגי אע"ג דלא חוורי

Amemar said in the name of R'Zebid: It consists of three tendons, one thick and two thin.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
3

אמר אמימר משמיה דרב זביד

If the thick one was severed [it is trefah, for] the greater part of its structure has gone; and if the thin ones were severed [i trefah, for] the greater number [of tendons] has gone.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
4

תלתא חוטי הוו חד אלימא ותרי קטיני

Mar son of R'Ashi reports the above in favour of leniency thus: If the thick one was severed [it is permitted, for] there remains the greater number of tendons, and if the thin ones were severed [it is permitted, for] there remains the greater part of its structure.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
5

איפסיק אלימא אזדא רוב בנין איפסיק קטיני אזדא רוב מנין

In birds the juncture consists of sixteen tendons; if one was severed, it is trefah.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
6

מר בר רב אשי מתני לקולא

Mar son of R'Ashi said was once standing before my father when there was brought to him a bird which he examined and found therein only fifteen tendons.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
7

איפסיק אלימא האיכא רוב מנין איפסיק קטיני האיכא רוב בנין

One, however, appeared different from the others, so he split it and found that it was composed of two tendons; [he therefore declared it to be permitted.]

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
8

בעופות שיתסר חוטי הוו אי פסיק חד מינייהו טרפה

Rab Judah said in the name of Rab: With regard to the juncture of the tendons, if the greater part [was severed, it is trefah].

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
9

אמר מר בר רב אשי

What is meant by 'the greater part'?

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
10

הוה קאימנא קמיה דאבא ואייתו לקמיה עופא ובדק ואשכח ביה חמיסר הוה חד דהוה שני מחבריה נפציה ואשכח תרי

The greater part of any one of them.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
11

אמר רב יהודה אמר רב

When I stated this in the presence of Samuel he said to me, 'Consider, there are three [tendons], are there not?

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
12

צומת הגידין שאמרו ברובו

Even if one was entirely severed there still remain two'! Now the reason is because there still remain two; but if there did not remain two it would not [be permitted].

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
13

מאי רובו

This clearly is in conflict with the view of Rabbanai.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
14

רוב אחד מהן

For Rabbanai stated in the name of Samuel: If of the juncture of the tendons there only remained as much as the thread of a woolen cloak, it is permitted.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
15

כי אמריתה קמיה דשמואל אמר לי

Others say: By 'the greater part' is meant the greater part of each.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
16

מכדי תלתא הוו כי מיפסיק חד מינייהו לגמרי הא איכא תרי

[tendon].<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And then only is it trefah.');"><sup>1</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
17

טעמא דאיכא תרי הא ליכא תרי לא

When I stated this in the presence of Samuel he said to me, 'Consider, there are three [tendons], are there not?

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
18

ופליגא דרבנאי דאמר רבנאי אמר שמואל

[Even if the greater part of each was cut] there still remains one third of each one'.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Which together make up one whole tendon; and so should be permitted.');"><sup>2</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
19

צומת הגידים אפי' לא נשתייר בה אלא כחוט הסרבל כשרה

This accordingly supports the view of Rabbanai.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
20

ואיכא דאמרי

For Rabbanai stated in the name of Samuel: If of the juncture of the tendons there only remained as much as the thread of a woolen cloak, it is permitted.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
21

מאי רובו רוב כל אחד ואחד

IF THE BONE WAS BROKEN etc. Rab said, [Where the fracture was] above the joint,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The joint spoken of in our MISHNAH:');"><sup>3</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
22

כי אמריתה קמיה דשמואל אמר לי

if the greater part o the flesh remained,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Covering the fracture.');"><sup>4</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
23

מכדי תלתא הוו האיכא תלתא דכל חד וחד

both<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., the animal as well as the limb.');"><sup>5</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
24

מסייע ליה לרבנאי דאמר רבנאי אמר שמואל

are permitted, and if not both are forbidden.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
25

צומת הגידין שאמרו אפי' לא נשתייר בה אלא כחוט הסרבל כשרה:

[Where the fracture was] below the joint, if the greater part of the flesh remained, both are permitted, and if not the limb is forbidden<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since it hangs loose from the animal it is not rendered permitted by the slaughtering of the animal.');"><sup>6</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
26

נשבר העצם כו':

but the animal is permitted.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
27

אמר רב

Samuel said: Whether the fracture was above or below the joint, if the greater part of the flesh remained, both are permitted, and if not the limb is forbidden but the animal is permitted.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
28

למעלה מן הארכובה אם רוב הבשר קיים זה וזה מותר ואם לאו זה וזה אסור

R'Nahman demurred saying: According to Samuel's view people will remark, 'A limb thereof is thrown on to the dung-heap and yet the animal is permitted'!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' This surely cannot be right.');"><sup>7</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
29

למטה מן הארכובה אם רוב הבשר קיים זה וזה מותר אם לאו אבר אסור ובהמה מותרת

Whereupon R'Aba son of R'Huna said to R'Nahman: Even according to Rab's view<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In the case where the fracture occurred below the joint and the greater part of the surrounding flesh was gone.');"><sup>8</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
30

ושמואל אמר

people will remark, 'A limb thereof is thrown on to the dung-heap and yet the animal is permitted!' - He replied.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
31

בין למעלה בין למטה אם רוב הבשר קיים זה וזה מותר אם לאו אבר אסור ובהמה מותרת

I mean this, people will remark, 'A vital<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That is, where the fracture was above the joint.');"><sup>9</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
32

מתקיף לה רב נחמן לשמואל

limb of the animal is thrown on to the dung-heap and yet the animal is permitted'!

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
33

יאמרו אבר ממנה מוטל באשפה ומותרת

They sent word from there [Palestine]: The law agrees with Rab's view.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' It will be seen that the only point of difference between Rab and Samuel is in the case where the fracture was above the joint and the greater part of the flesh around the fracture was gone. According to Rab both the limb and the animal are forbidden, whilst according to Samuel the animal is permitted even though the limb is forbidden.');"><sup>10</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
34

א"ל רב אחא בר רב הונא לרב נחמן

They later sent word: The law agrees with Samuel's view.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
35

לרב נמי יאמרו

And yet another time they sent word: The law agrees with Rab's view; moreover, the limb conveys uncleanness by carrying.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
36

אבר ממנה מוטל באשפה ומותרת

R'Hisda raised this objection.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
37

א"ל הכי קאמינא

It was taught: It is not so.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
38

אבר שחיה ממנה מוטל באשפה ומותרת שלחו מתם

When you say that the slaughtering of a trefah animal renders it clean, or [that the slaughtering of an animal] renders the limb that hangs loose clean, you are concerned with [the animal] itself; but can it render clean the [limb of the] foetus which is not part of [the animal] itself?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In this Baraitha it is admitted by all that a limb that hangs loose from the animal is rendered clean by the slaughtering of the animal. How then can it be said that it conveys uncleanness by 'carrying'?');"><sup>11</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
39

הלכתא כוותיה דרב הדור שלחו

Thereupon Rabbah said to him: Why go searching for objections?

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
40

כוותיה דשמואל הדור שלחו

You could raise an objection from a Mishnah which we have learnt: If the animal was slaughtered they<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., the loose limb and the pieces of flesh that hang loose from the animal.');"><sup>12</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
41

כוותיה דרב ואבר עצמו מטמא במשא

are rendered susceptible [to contract uncleanness] by the blood [of the slaughtering]: so R'Meir.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
42

מתיב רב חסדא

R'Simeon says: They are not rendered susceptible to uncleanness!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The dispute is only with regard to their being rendered susceptible to contract uncleanness in the future, but both agree that the limb itself does not convey uncleanness. V. infra 127b; supra 73b.');"><sup>13</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
43

לא אם טיהרה שחיטת טרפה אותה ואת האבר המדולדל בה דבר שגופה תטהר את העובר דבר שאינו גופה

- He replied, [The objection from] that Mishnah can be rejected as indeed we rejected it above.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. supra 73b. It was there suggested that that Mishnah does not deal with a loose limb at all but only with pieces of flesh that hang loose from the limb or from the animal itself.');"><sup>14</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
44

א"ל רבה

When R'Zera went up [to Palestine] he found R'Jeremiah [b.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
45

הדורי אפירכי למה לך

Abba] sitting and reciting the above statement [of Rab].

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
46

אותיב ממתני'

R'Zera thereupon remarked: 'Well spoken! So, too, did Arioch<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' A title of dignity applied to Samuel, the contemporary of Rab. It is probably a Persian adaptation of 'judge' (Jastrow) . V. Kid., Sonc. ed., p. 189, n. 11. V. also Rashi here, and in Men. 38b.');"><sup>15</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
47

נשחטה בהמה הוכשרו בדמיה דברי ר"מ

teach it in Babylon'! But who is Arioch?

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
48

ר"ש אומר

It is Samuel, is it not?

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
49

לא הוכשרו

But does he not disagree [with Rab]? - Samuel retracted his opinion in favour of Rab's.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
50

א"ל

Our Rabbis taught: Where the bone was broken and it protruded outside, if the skin and flesh cover the greater part of it, it is permitted; otherwise it is forbidden.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
51

מתני' איכא לדחויי כדדחינן

What is meant by 'the greater part of it'? - Whe R'Dimi came [from Palestine] he reported in the name of R'Johanan that it means, the greater part of its thickness.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Sc. of the bone; i.e., only a small part of the surface of the fracture was exposed whereas the greater part was covered by the flesh and skin.');"><sup>16</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
52

כי סליק ר' זירא אשכחיה לרב ירמיה דיתיב וקאמר לה להא שמעתא

Others say: It means, the greater part [of the flesh] that surrounds it.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., the greater part of the flesh around the fracture was whole and not lacerated. Even though the entire surface of the fracture had projected and was exposed, it would be permitted.');"><sup>17</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
53

א"ל

R'Papa said: We therefore require the greater part of its thickness [to be covered by flesh], as well as the greater part [of th flesh] that surrounds it [to be intact].

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
54

יישר וכן תרגמה אריוך בבבל

Ulla said in the name of R'Johanan: The skin is like the flesh.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The skin is considered an adequate covering over the fracture even though all the flesh underneath the skin was gone.');"><sup>18</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
55

אריוך מנו שמואל והא מיפלג פליג

R'Nahman said to Ulla: Why does not the Master rather say that the skin is to be reckoned with the flesh [to make up the required amount]?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., that the covering over the fracture shall consist half of skin and half of flesh, but not as was suggested entirely of skin.');"><sup>19</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
56

הדר ביה שמואל לגביה דרב

Does not [the above Baraitha] state 'skin and flesh'? - He replied: We interpret [that Baraitha] to mean, either skin or flesh.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
57

ת"ר

Others report this as follows: Ulla said in the name of R'Johanan: The skin is to be reckoned together with the flesh [to make up the required amount].

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
58

נשבר העצם ויצא לחוץ אם עור ובשר חופין את רובו מותר אם לאו אסור

R'Nahman said to Ulla: Why does not the Master rather say that the skin merely completes the [required amount of] flesh, adopting the stricter interpretation?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., if the greater portion which surrounds the fracture consists for the most part of flesh but there is a little skin which completes the required amount, only then would it be permitted, but not where it consisted half of flesh and half of skin.');"><sup>20</sup></span>

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
59

וכמה רובו

- He replied: I only know of the following incident.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
60

כי אתא רב דימי אמר ר' יוחנן

At the house of R'Isaac there was a young pigeon [whose leg was broken], and the skin, if reckoned together with the flesh, [covered up the greater part of the fracture].

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
61

רוב עוביו ואמרי לה

The case was brought before R'Johanan and he declared it to be permitted.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
62

רוב הקיפו

Thereupon R'Nahman retorted: You are speaking of a young pigeon! but the case of a young pigeon is quite different, because its skin is tender.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
63

אמר רב פפא

[The case of a fracture which was covered for the most part with flesh and] tender sinews came before Raba.

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
64

הלכך בעינן רוב עוביו ובעינן רוב הקיפו

Said Raba: What have we to fear?

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
65

אמר עולא אמר רבי יוחנן

In the first place, R'Johanan has declared that in respect of the sinews which later will become hard

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
66

עור הרי הוא כבשר

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
67

א"ל רב נחמן לעולא ולימא מר

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
68

עור מצטרף לבשר דהא עור ובשר קתני

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
69

א"ל

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
70

אנן עור או בשר תנינן

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
71

איכא דאמרי [אמר עולא] א"ר יוחנן

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
72

עור מצטרף לבשר

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
73

א"ל רב נחמן לעולא ולימא מר

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
74

עור משלים לבשר לחומרא

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
75

א"ל

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
76

אנא עובדא ידענא דההוא בר גוזלא דהוה בי רבי יצחק דעור מצטרף לבשר הוה ואתא לקמיה דר' יוחנן ואכשריה

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
77

א"ל

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
78

בר גוזלא קאמרת

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
79

בר גוזלא דרכיך שאני

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
80

הנהו גידין רכין דאתו לקמיה דרבה אמר רבה

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
81

למאי ליחוש להו

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
82

חדא דאמר ר' יוחנן

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
83

גידין שסופן להקשות

ResourcesAsk RabbiCopyNotesHighlightBookmarkSharePlay
Previous ChapterNext Chapter