Kiddushin 25

Chapter 25

א כי אמרה לא נמי הוו קידושין אמאי והא קאמרה לא אלא לאו רצתה דאמרה אין לא רצתה דאישתיקה משתקה ושמע מינה שתיקה דלאחר מתן מעות ולא כלום היא

1 that even if she said 'no,' it is [valid] kiddushin. But why, seeing that she said 'no'? Hence surely, 'she consented' means that she said 'yes', whilst 'she did not consent, that she kept silence; thus proving that silence after receipt of money has no significance.

ב קשו בה בפום נהרא משמיה דרב הונא בריה דרב יהושע מי דמי התם בתורת פקדון יהבינהו ניהלה סברה אי שדינא להו ומיתברי מחייבנא בהו הכא בתורת קדושין יהבינהו ניהלה ואי איתא דלא ניחא לה לישדינהו

2 A difficulty was raised thereon at Pum Nehara<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' A town lying. as its name signifies, at the mouth of a canal (Nehar Sura = 'the Sura canal') , where it debouches into another, not far from Humanya on the Tigris. It had an all-Jewish population. Obermeyer, pp. 194 et seqq.');">1 in the name of R'Huna, son of R'Joshua. How compare?

ג פריך רב אחאי אטו כולהו נשי דינא גמירי ה"נ סברה אי שדינא להו ומיתברי מיתחייבנא באחריותייהו שלחה רב אחא בר רב לקמיה דרבינא כה"ג מאי שלח ליה אנן לא שמיע לן הא דרב הונא בריה דרב יהושע אתון דשמיע לכו חושו לה

3 There it was given her as a deposit: [therefore] she thought, 'If I throw it away and it is broken, I am liable for it.' But here he gave it to her as kiddushin: if did not want it [as such], she should have thrown it away! - R'Ahai retorted: Do then all women know the law? Here too she might have thought, 'If I throw it away and it is broken, I will be held responsible for it.'

ד ההיא איתתא דהוה קא מזבנה וורשכי אתא ההוא גברא חטף וורשכא מינה אמרה ליה הבה ניהלי אמר לה אי יהיבנא ליך מיקדשת לי שקלתיה ואישתיקה ואמר ר"נ יכולה למימר אין שקלי ודידי שקלי

4 R'Aha B'Rab sent [an inquiry]2 to Rabina: What is the ruling in such a case? He sent back: We have not heard this [objection] of R'Huna, son of R'Joshua;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Rashi: we have heard it neither from him nor from anyone else in his name - which is not very satisfactory, seeing that they were evidently aware of it, whoever their informant was. Kaplan, Redaction of the Talmud, p. 138 translates: We have not found the view of R. Huna the son of R. Joshua as logically correct.');">3

ה איתיביה רבא לר"נ קידשה בגזל ובחמס ובגניבה או שחטף סלע מידה וקדשה מקודשת התם בדשדיך

5 but you, who have heard it,4 must have regard to it.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Therefore the kiddushin has at least doubtful validity (v. p. 47, n.10) ; Tosaf. Ri the Elder. - Kaplan. loc. cit., assumes that R. Aha b. Rab, Rabina and R. Ahai, otherwise known as the Sabora R. Ahai of Hatim, appear here as contemporaries. On the strength of this he identifies Rabina with Rabina b. R. Huna, the last president of Sura, and not Rabina, the colleague of R. Ashi. Actually however, there is nothing here to indicate that they were contemporaries, the reply of R. Ahai possibly having been made at a later date.');">5 A certain woman was selling silk skeins,6

ו ומנא תימרא דשני לן בין שדיך ודלא שדיך דתניא אמר לה כנסי סלע זו שאני חייב ליכי וחזר ואמר לה התקדשי לי בו בשעת מתן מעות רצתה מקודשת לא רצתה אינה מקודשת לאחר מתן מעות אפילו רצתה אינה מקודשת

6 when a man came and snatched one away from her.' Give it back to me,' she exclaimed.' If I give it to you,' he queried, 'will you become betrothed to me? ' She took it and was silent.

ז מאי רצתה ומאי לא רצתה אילימא רצתה דאמרה אין לא רצתה דאמרה לא הא אישתיקה הוו קידושין ונתני מקודשת סתם כי התם

7 Thereupon R'Nahman ruled: She can say: 'Indeed, I took it, and 'twas my own I took'.7 Raba objected before R'Nahman: If he betroths her with [an article] of robbery, violence, or theft,8 or if he snatches a sela' from her hand and betroths her, she is [validly] betrothed? - There it means that he had discussed the preliminaries [of marriage].9

ח אלא רצתה דאמרה אין לא רצתה דאישתיקה וקא תני דאינה מקודשת מאי טעמא יכולה למימר אין שקלי ודידי שקלי

8 And how do you know that we draw a distinction between one who discussed the preliminaries and one who did not? - Because it was taught: If one says to a woman,10 'Take this sela' which I owe thee,' and then he says: 'Be thou betrothed unto me therewith': [if he said this] when giving the money and she consented, she is betrothed; if she did not consent , she is not betrothed; after giving the money, even if she consented, she is not betrothed. Now, what is the meaning of 'she consented,' 'she did not consent'?

ט ואלא קשיא הך דקדשה בגזל ובחמס ובגניבה או שחטף סלע מידה וקדשה מקודשת אלא לאו שמע מינה הא דשדיך הא דלא שדיך

9 Shall we say: 'she consented' means that she said 'yes', 'she did not consent', that she said 'no' but if she remained silent, the kiddushin is valid? Then it should simply have been taught: 'she is betrothed',just as there.11 But [we must say,] 'she consented' means that she said 'yes,' whilst 'she did not consent,' that she was silent, and it was taught that she is not betrothed.

י כי נח נפשיה דרב אסי עיילו רבנן לנקוטינהו לשמעתתיה א"ל ההוא מרבנן ור' יעקב שמיה הכי א"ר אסי א"ר מני כשם שאין אשה נקנית בפחות מש"פ כך אין קרקע נקנית בפחות מש"פ אמרו ליה והתניא אע"פ שאין אשה נקנית בפחות משוה פרוטה קרקע נקנית בפחות מש"פ

10 What is the reason? Because she can say: 'Indeed, I took it, and 'twas mine I took.' But in that case, this [Baraitha], 'If he betroths her with rob violence, or theft, or if he snatches a sela' from her hand and betroths her, she is betrothed,' presents a difficulty.

יא א"ל כי תניא ההיא בחליפין דתניא קונין בכלי ואע"פ שאין בו שוה פרוטה

11 Hence it must surely be inferred that in the one case he had discussed the preliminaries,12 whereas in the other he had not. When R'Assi died, the Rabbis went up to assemble his legal traditions.

יב הדר יתבי וקאמרי הא דאמר רב יהודה אמר שמואל כל שאינו יודע בטיב גיטין וקדושין לא יהא לו עסק עמהן אמר ר' אסי אמר רבי יוחנן וקשין לעולם יותר מדור המבול שנאמר (הושע ד, ב) אלה וכחש ורצוח וגנוב ונאוף פרצו ודמים בדמים נגעו

12 Said one of the Rabbis, R'Jacob by name, to them: Thus did R'Assi say in R'Mani's name: Just as a woman cannot be acquired by less than a perutah's worth, so can real estate not be acquired with less than a perutah's worth. But, they protested to him, it was taught: Although a woman cannot be acquired for less than a perutah's worth, land can be acquired for less than a perutah's worth? - That was taught only in respect to barter, he answered them. For it was taught: Acquisition can be effected through an article, even if it is not worth a perutah.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Barter (Heb. halifin) is a system of symbolic exchange, the article with which it is effected symbolically representing the larger article or the money which is actually the purchase price: consequently it may be worth less than a perutah. But when acquisition is effected through money itself, or an article valued as money, what is not worth a perutah does not rank as such.');">13

יג מאי משמע כדמתרגם רב יוסף מולדין בנין מנשי חבריהון חובין על חובין מוסיפין

13 Again they sat and related: In reference to Rab Judah's statement in Rab's name, [that] one who does not know the peculiar nature of divorce and betrothal should have no business with them,14 R'Assi said in R'Johanan's name: And they15 are more harmful to the world than the generation of the flood, for it is written: By swearing, and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery, they spread forth, and blood toucheth blood.16

יד וכתיב (הושע ד, ג) על כן תאבל הארץ ואמלל כל יושב בה בחית השדה ובעוף השמים וגם דגי הים יאספו וגו' ואילו בדור המבול לא נגזרה גזירה על דגים שבים שנאמר (בראשית ז, כב) מכל אשר בחרבה מתו ולא דגים שבים ואילו הכא אפילו דגים שבים

14 How does this imply [it]? - As R'Joseph translated:17 They beget children by their neighbour's wives,18 thus piling evil upon evil.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' So interpreting 'blood toucheth blood.' - Men of insufficient knowledge who take part in the solemnising of marriage and divorce likewise cause this, married women often being declared free illegally.');">19

טו ואימא עד דעביד לכולהו לא סלקא דעתך דכתיב (ירמיהו כג, י) כי מפני אלה אבלה הארץ

15 And it is written: Therefore shall the land mourn and everyone that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field and the fowls of heaven: yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away.20 Whereas in the case of the generation of the flood nought was decreed against the fish of the sea, for it is written, of all that was in the dry land, died:21 [implying] but not the fish in the sea, whilst here even the fish of the sea [are to be destroyed].

טז ואימא אלה לחוד והנך לחודיהון

16 But perhaps that is only when a these are perpetrated?22 - You cannot think so, for it is written, for because of swearing the land mourneth.23 Yet perhaps swearing stands alone, and these others [combined] alone?

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