Kiddushin 90

Chapter 90

א שמא נתרצה הבן לא אמרינן אמרי ליה רבנן לרבינא ודילמא שליח שויה לא חציף איניש לשויי לאבוה שליח ודילמא ארצויי ארצייה קמיה אמר ליה רבה בר שימי בפירוש אמר מר דלא סבר להא דרב ושמואל
1 we [certainly] do not say: 'Perhaps the son consented.'<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' After his father betrothed him without his knowledge. - A father is very anxious to see his daughter married, but a man takes more care. One has no rights over his son's marriage, unless he is authorised.');"><sup>1</sup></span> But perhaps, urged the Rabbis to Rabina, he [the son] had appointed him [the father] his agent? - A man is not so insolent as to appoint his father an agent. But perhaps he [the son] had shewn a desire for her in his presence?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And then his father need not be formally appointed an agent, on the principle: one can confer a benefit on another without the latter's knowledge.');"><sup>2</sup></span>
ב ההוא גברא דקדיש בכישא דירקא בשוקא אמר רבינא אפילו למאן דאמר חוששין שמא נתרצה האב הני מילי דרך כבוד אבל דרך בזיון לא
2 Said Rabbah B'Simi to them: The Master [Rabina] has [once] distinctly stated that he does not accept this view of Rab and Samuel.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That we fear her father's subsequent consent; hence we certainly do not fear the son's subsequent consent or his previous intimation. This is the true reason of Rabina's ruling. His statement, 'even on the view, etc.,' was merely to give it wider acceptance.');"><sup>3</sup></span> A certain man betrothed [a minor] with a bunch of vegetables in a market place.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Without her father's knowledge.');"><sup>4</sup></span> Said Rabina.
ג א"ל רב אחא מדיפתי לרבינא בזיון דמאי אי בזיון דירקא אי בזיון דשוקא נפקא מינה דקדיש בכספא בשוקא או בכישא דירקא בביתא מאי א"ל אידי ואידי דרך בזיון הוא
3 Even on the view that we fear lest her father consented, that is only [when it is done] in an honourable manner, but not contemptuously. R'Aba of Difti asked Rabina: What displayed contempt? the vegetables, or [the fact that it was done in] a market-place?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' To betroth with vegetables is contemptuous treatment: likewise it is undignified to betroth in a market place (bizayon, used in the text, connotes both contemptuous and undignified) . Now, to what would the father really take exception?');"><sup>5</sup></span>
ד ההוא דאמר לקריבאי והיא אמרה לקריבה כפתיה עד דאמר לה תיהוי לקריבה אדאכלי ושתי אתא קריביה באיגרא וקדשה
4 The practical difference arises if he betroths her with money in the market place, or with a bunch of vegetables at home. What then? - Both, he replied, are contemptuous.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And the father's subsequent consent need not be feared.');"><sup>6</sup></span> A certain man insisted, '[Our daughter must be married] to my relation;' whereas she [his wife] maintained, 'To my relation.'
ה אמר אביי כתיב (צפניה ג, יג) שארית ישראל לא יעשו עולה ולא ידברו כזב רבא אמר חזקה אין אדם טורח בסעודה ומפסידה
5 She nagged him until he told her that she could be [married] to her relation. Whilst they were eating and drinking,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' At the betrothal festivities, before the actual betrothal.');"><sup>7</sup></span> his relation went up to a loft and betrothed her.
ו מאי בינייהו איכא בינייהו דלא טרח
6 Said Abaye: It is written: The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Zeph. III, 13; hence the father, having given his word, certainly did not consent now. - She was a minor.');"><sup>8</sup></span> Raba said: It is a presumption that one does not trouble to prepare a banquet and then destroy it.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' It had been prepared for the wife's relation and would now be lost! Hence the father certainly did not consent. (Or, he had certainly not instructed his daughter secretly beforehand to accept the kiddushin.)');"><sup>9</sup></span> Wherein do they differ? - They differ in the case where he did not trouble.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' According to Abaye there is no fear of the father's consent; according to Raba, there is.');"><sup>10</sup></span>
ז נתקדשה לדעת אביה והלך אביה למדינת הים ועמדה ונישאת אמר רב אוכלת בתרומה עד שיבא אביה וימחה רב אסי אמר אינה אוכלת שמא יבוא אביה וימחה ונמצאת זרה אוכלת בתרומה למפרע הוה עובדא וחש לה רב להא דרב אסי
7 If she [a minor] became betrothed with her father's consent, and her father departed overseas, and she arose and married<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Her betrothed, i.e., nissu'in were performed (q.v. Glos.) .');"><sup>11</sup></span> Raba said: She may eat terumah<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' If her husband is a priest, though she is not; v. Lev. XXII, 11, which includes such.');"><sup>12</sup></span> until her father comes and protests [against the nissu'in].<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Though she may not eat terumah until after the huppah (v. Glos.) , which took place without her father's consent, we take his consent to the huppah for granted, since he consented to the kiddushin, unless he returns and objects.');"><sup>13</sup></span>
ח אמר רב שמואל בר רב יצחק ומודה רב שאם מתה אינו יורשה אוקי ממונא בחזקת מריה
8 R'Assi said: She may not eat, lest her father return and protest, and so zarah<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. Glos.');"><sup>14</sup></span> will retrospectively be found to have eaten terumah. Such a case occurred, and Rab paid regard to<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'feared'.');"><sup>15</sup></span>
ט נתקדשה לדעת וניסת שלא לדעת ואביה כאן רב הונא אמר אינה אוכלת רב ירמיה בר אבא אמר אוכלת
9 R'Assi's opinion. R'Samuel B'Isaac said: Yet Rab admits that if she dies he [her husband] is her heir,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' A husband is his wife's heir after nissu'in, but not after kiddushin.');"><sup>16</sup></span> [because] the ownership of money is vested in its possessor.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Before nissu'in, the money certainly belongs to her father, and is therefore deemed in his possession. Since we do not know whether he will give the huppah his retrospective consent, it remains so.');"><sup>17</sup></span>
י רב הונא אמר אינה אוכלת ואפי' לרב דאמר אוכלת התם הוא דלא איתיה לאב אבל הכא דאיתיה לאב האי דאישתיק מירתח רתח רב ירמיה בר אבא אמר אוכלת ואפי' לרב אסי דאמר אינה אוכלת התם הוא דשמא יבוא אביה וימחה אבל הכא מדשתיק איתנוחי איתנחא ליה
10 If she became betrothed with [her father's] knowledge and married without his knowledge, and her father is present,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'here'.');"><sup>18</sup></span> - R'Huna said: She may not eat [terumah]; R'Jeremiah B'Abba said: She may eat. R'Huna said: she may not eat': even on Rab's view that she may eat [in the first case], that is only there, since the father is absent;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Hence his consent may be taken for granted.');"><sup>19</sup></span>
יא נתקדשה שלא לדעת אביה וניסת שלא לדעת ואביה כאן רב הונא אמר אוכלת רב ירמיה בר אבא אמר אינה אוכלת אמר עולא הא דרב הונא (משלי י, כו) כחומץ לשנים וכעשן לעינים השתא ומה התם דקידושי דאורייתא אמרת לא אכלה הכא לא כל שכן
11 but here, that the father is present, the reason he is silent is that he is angry.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That she became married without asking him.');"><sup>20</sup></span> R'Jeremiah B'Abba said: She may eat': even according to R'Assi, who ruled that she may not eat: it is only there, for her father might return and protest; but here, since he is silent, [it shows that] he does consent. If she became betrothed and married without her father's knowledge, and her father is present, - R'Huna said: She may eat [terumah]: R'Jeremiah B'Abba said: She may not eat. Said 'Ulla: This [ruling] of R'Huna is 'as vinegar to the teeth, and as smoke to the eyes':<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Prov. X, 26.');"><sup>21</sup></span> if there, that her kiddushin was Biblically valid,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since she had her father's consent at kiddushin.');"><sup>22</sup></span> you say that she may not eat, how much more so here!
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