Menachot 83

אין לה שיעור למעלה אבל יש לה שיעור למטה דאי לא תימא הכי כיוצא בו לולב אין לו שיעור הכי נמי דאין לו שיעור כלל

there is no prescribed maximum length but there is a prescribed minimum length.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The fringes may be as long as desired, but they must hang down for at least the length of four fingerbreadths.');">¹</span> For if you will not say so, the ruling 'And so, too, that there was no prescribed length for the lulab' would also have to mean that there is no prescribed length at all for it, but we have learnt: A lulab which is three handbreadths in length, long enough to shake, is valid?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' But if it is less than three handbreadths in length it is not valid; so that there is a prescribed minimum length for it. V. Suk. 29b. ,mhmc');">²</span>

והתנן לולב שיש בו ג' טפחים כדי לנענע בו כשר אלא אין לו שיעור למעלה אבל יש לו שיעור למטה ה"נ אין לו שיעור למעלה אבל יש לו שיעור למטה

We must therefore say that it means, there is no prescribed maximum length for it but there is a prescribed minimum length; so here too, [with regard to the zizith] it means, there is no prescribed maximum length for it but there is a prescribed minimum length. Our Rabbis taught: zizith: the word zizith means nothing else than something which hangs loose, for so it says, And took me by a lock [zizith] of mine head.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Ez. VIII, 3. Heb. .');">³</span>

ת"ר ציצית אין ציצית אלא ענף וכן הוא אומר (יחזקאל ח, ג) ויקחני בציצית ראשי ואמר אביי וצריך לפרודה כי צוציתא דארמאי

Abaye said, One must keep [the threads] separate, like the forelock of the gentiles.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The forelock after being bound together was left to hang loose in separate strands of hair. So, too, with the fringes, after the necessary windings the threads must hang loose in separate strands.');">⁴</span> Our Rabbis taught If one attached the fringes to the tip [of the corner] or to the selvedge [of the garment],<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The closely woven binding at the edge of the garment so as to prevent ravelling.');">⁵</span>

ת"ר הטיל על הקרן או על הגדיל כשירה רבי אליעזר בן יעקב (אומר) פוסל בשתיהן

it is valid; R'Eliezer B'Jacob declares it invalid in both cases. Whose view is adopted in the following statement of R'Giddal in the name of Rab: The fringes must hang over the corner,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., the fringes must be some distance away from the corner so that the threads hang over and strike the corner; and it is invalid if the fringes were attached to the actual corner, thus in agreement with R. Eliezer b. Jacob.');">⁶</span>

כמאן אזלא הא דאמר רב גידל אמר רב ציצית צריכה שתהא נוטפת על הקרן שנאמר (במדבר טו, לח) על כנפי בגדיהם כמאן כרבי אליעזר בן יעקב

for it is written, Upon the corners of their garments?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Num. XV, 38.');">⁷</span> It is the view of R'Eliezer B'Jacob.

אמר ר' יעקב אמר רבי יוחנן וצריך שירחיק מלא קשר גודל

R'Jacob said in the name of R'Johanan, It<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., the hole in the garment through which the fringes are thread.');">⁸</span> must be removed from the corner the distance of the first joint of the thumb.

ואיצטריך דרב פפא ואיצטריך דר' יעקב דאי מדרב פפא הוה אמינא תוך ג' דלא לירחיק טפי וכמה דמקרב מעלי איצטריך דר' יעקב

Now both R'Papa's teaching<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Supra 41b, that the fringes must be inserted within three fingerbreadths' distance from the corner.');">⁹</span> and this teaching of R'Jacob are necessary.

ואי מדרבי יעקב הוה אמינא מלא קשר גודל דלא ליקרב טפי וכמה דרחיק מעלי צריכא

For from R'Papa's teaching I only know that it must be within three fingerbreadths' distance from the corner and not farther away than that, but the nearer it is [to the corner] the better; therefore R'Jacob's teaching was necessary. An from R'Jacob's teaching I only know that it must be away from the corner the distance of the first joint of the thumb and not nearer than that, but the farther away it is [from the corner] the better; therefore [both teachings] are necessary.

רבינא ורב סמא הוו יתבי קמיה דרב אשי חזייה רב סמא לקרניה דגלימיה דרבינא דסתר ובצר ממלא קשר גודל אמר ליה לא סבר לה מר להא דר' יעקב אמר ליה בשעת עשייה איתמר

Rabina and R'Sama were once sitting before R'Ashi when R'Sama noticed that the [edges around the hole in the] corner of Rabina's garment had frayed and [the fringe] was now less than the distance of the first joint of the thumb away [from the corner], and he said to him, 'Does not my Master accept R'Jacob's teaching? ' He replied, 'That rule was intended to apply only at the time when it was first made'. [R'Sama] became embarrassed, whereupon R'Ashi said to him, 'Do not be upset, for one of them<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Sc. scholars from Palestine, of whom Rabina was one.');">¹⁰</span>

איכסיף אמר ליה רב אשי לא תתקיף לך חד מינייהו כתרי מינן

is equal to two of us'. R'Aha B'Jacob used to take four threads, double them over, insert them through the garment, and then make them into a loop;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Having doubled over the threads he used to insert the looped end through the hole in the garment an inch or so and then pass the ends of the threads through this loop and pull tight, and in this manner the threads hung from the garment. ibhgcs huvhks ohkhsd khsd');">¹¹</span>

רב אחא בר יעקב רמי ארבע ועייף להו מיעף ומעייל להו בגלימא ואביק להו מיבק קסבר בעינן תמניא בגלימא כי היכי דליהוי גדיל גדילים במקום פתיל

he was of the opinion that there must be eight threads in the [hole of the] garment, the same number as the threads which hang loose.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' So MS.M. and early editions, reading for . According to cur. text: the same as the number of threads that hang loose suggested by the terms 'twisted cord' and 'twisted cords' (v. supra p. 239) .');">¹²</span> R'Jeremiah of Difti used to insert eight threads, which [when hanging down] made sixteen loose threads, but he did not make them into a loop.

רב ירמיה מדפתי רמי תמניא דאינהו שיתסר ולא אביק להו מר בריה דרבינא עביד כדידן

Mar the son of Rabina used to do it as we do now.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., insert four threads so that there are eight threads hanging loose.');">¹³</span> R'Nahman once found R'Adda B'Ahabah inserting the threads [in a garment] and reciting the blessing '[Blessed art thou.

רב נחמן אשכחיה לרב אדא בר אהבה רמי חוטי וקא מברך לעשות ציצית א"ל מאי ציצי שמענא הכי אמר רב ציצית אין צריכה ברכה

and hast commanded us] to make the zizith', whereupon he said, 'What is this zizi that I hear?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Mockingly mispronouncing the word.');">¹⁴</span> Thus said Rab: When making the zizith no blessing is to be pronounced'.

כי נח נפשיה דרב הונא על רב חסדא למירמא דרב אדרב ומי אמר רב ציצית אין צריך ברכה והא אמר רב יהודה אמר רב מנין לציצית בעובד כוכבים שהיא פסולה שנאמר (במדבר טו, ב) דבר אל בני ישראל ועשו להם ציצית בני ישראל יעשו ולא העובדי כוכבים יעשו

After the death of R'Huna, R'Hisda came in [as head of the School] and pointed out the following contradictory teachings of Rab. Did Rab really say that when making the zizith no blessing was to be pronounced?

והא מאי רומיא אמר רב יוסף קסבר רב חסדא כל מצוה שכשירה בעובד כוכבים בישראל אין צריך לברך כל מצוה שפסולה בעובד כוכבים בישראל צריך לברך

Surely Rab Judah has stated in the name of Rab, Whence do we know that the zizith made by a gentile are invalid? Because it is said, Speak unto the children of Israel and bid them that they make them fringes;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Num. XV, 38.');">¹⁵</span>

וכללא הוא והרי מילה דכשירה בעובד כוכבים דתניא עיר שאין בה רופא ישראל ויש בה רופא ארמאי ורופא כותי ימול ארמאי ואל ימול כותי דברי רבי מאיר רבי יהודה אומר כותי ולא ארמאי

the children of Israel shall make [the fringes], but not gentiles! But where is the contradiction her - R'Joseph said, R'Hisda is of the opinion that a precept which may be performed by a gentile does not require a blessing when performed by an Israelite,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For the usual formula 'Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, who hast sanctified us by thy commandments and hast commanded us . .' does not apply since the commandment may be also performed by a gentile.');">¹⁶</span> but a precept which may not be performed by a gentile requires a blessing when performed by an Israelite.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And since gentiles may not make the fringes it follows that when an Israelite makes them a blessing must be pronounced; thus contradicting the former statement of Rab.');">¹⁷</span>

ובישראל צריך לברך דאמר מר המל אומר ברוך אשר קדשנו במצותיו וצונו על המילה

Is this a general principle? But take the case of circumcision.

מידי הוא טעמא אלא לרב רב מיפסיל פסיל דאיתמר מנין למילה בעובד כוכבים שפסולה דרו בר פפא משמיה דרב אמר (בראשית יז, ט) ואתה את בריתי תשמור

This is permitted to be performed by a gentile, for it has been taught: In a town where there is no Israelite physician but there is a Cuthean<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The Cutheans, often called Samaritans, were one of the peoples settled in Samaria by the Assyrian king after the exile of the ten tribes. They adopted certain Jewish practices, particularly those based upon the written word of the Torah; cf. 2 Kings XVII, 2ff. Later, however, they were found to be worshipping a dove on Mount Gerizim; v. Hul. 6a.');">¹⁸</span> physician as well as a gentile one, circumcision should be performed by the gentile but not by the Cuthean.

ר' יוחנן אמר (בראשית יז, יג) המול ימול המל ימול

This is the opinion of R'Meir. But R'Judah said, It should be performed by the Cuthean but not by the gentile.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. A.Z. 26b.');">¹⁹</span>

סוכה מסייע ליה תפילין הוי תיובתיה

And yet when performed by an Israelite a blessing must be pronounced, for a Master has said,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Shab. 137b.');">²⁰</span> He that performs the circumcision must say, 'Blessed.

הרי סוכה דכשירה בעובד כוכבים דתניא סוכת עובדי כוכבים סוכת נשים סוכת בהמה סוכת כותיים סוכה מכל מקום כשירה ובלבד שתהא מסוככת כהילכתה

who hast sanctified us by thy commandments, and hast given us command concerning the circumcision!' - This question [by R'Hisda] concerns Rab, does it not? Surely Rab declares it<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Sc. circumcision by a gentile.');">²¹</span>

ובישראל אין צריך לברך דתניא העושה סוכה לעצמו אומר ברוך אתה ה' אלהינו מלך העולם שהחיינו וקימנו והגיענו לזמן הזה בא לישב בה אומר ברוך אתה ה' אלהינו מלך העולם אשר קדשנו במצותיו וצונו לישב בסוכה ואילו לעשות סוכה לא מברך

invalid! For it has been stated:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' A.Z. 27a.');">²²</span> Whence do we know that circumcision performed by a gentile is invalid?

תפילין תיובתיה והרי תפילין דפסולות בעובד כוכבים דתני רב חיננא בריה דרבא

Daru B'Papa said in the name of Rab, From the verse, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Gen. XVII, 9. Only one like Abraham, i.e., circumcised, may perform the circumcision. kunh kunv kunv');">²³</span> R'Johanan said, From the words, Must needs be circumcised,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Ibid. 13. Heb. can by a slight alteration of the vowels be rendered , 'he who is circumcised may circumcise', thus excluding gentiles. vfx');">²⁴</span> that is, he who is circumcised shall circumcise. The law concerning the sukkah<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Heb. , the booth set up at the Feast of Tabernacles in fulfilment of Lev. XXIII, 42.');">²⁵</span> adds support [to R'Hisda's principle] while that concerning the tefillin refutes it. Thus, the sukkah is valid when made by a gentile, for it has been taught: A booth of gentiles, women, cattle, or Cutheans, or any manner of booth, is valid [as a sukkah], provided it was roofed according to law.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Suk. 8b.');">²⁶</span> And when made by an Israelite no blessing is necessary, for it has been taught: When a man makes a sukkah for himself he must say, 'Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who hast kept us in life, and hast preserved us, and enabled us to reach this season'; and when he enters to sit in it he must say, 'Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the universe, who hast sanctified us by thy commandments, and hast commanded us to dwell in the sukkah'. But one never says, [Blessed. and hast commanded us] to make the sukkah. On the other hand, the law of tefillin is a refutation; for the tefillin are invalid when made by a gentile, for R'Hinena the son of Raba