Niddah 16

Chapter 16

א והא קשיש מיניה טובא אלא משום דקאי רבי חנינא בן גמליאל בשיטתיה
1 But was he<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Eliezer, a contemporary and brother-in-law of R. Gamaliel the son of Simeon who was one of the 'Ten Royal Martyrs' (Rashi). ');"><sup>1</sup></span> not much older than he?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Hanina, who was a son of R. Gamaliel of Jamnia (v. Tosaf.). Now is it likely that an older scholar would quote a tradition on the authority of a younger one? ');"><sup>2</sup></span> — Rather say:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In explanation why the halachah is in agreement with R. Eliezer in this particular case. ');"><sup>3</sup></span>
ב ומי קאי והתניא אור יוה"כ מתפלל שבע ומתודה שחרית מתפלל שבע ומתודה מוסף מתפלל שבע ומתודה מנחה מתפלל שבע ומתודה בנעילה מתפלל שבע ומתודה בערבית מתפלל שבע מעין שמנה עשרה
2 Because R. Hanina b. Gamaliel took up<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' At a later date. Lit., 'stands'. ');"><sup>4</sup></span> the same line as he, But did he<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Hanina. ');"><sup>5</sup></span> take it up? Was it not in fact taught: On the night of the Day of Atonement<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The 'Day' extending over a night and the following day. ');"><sup>6</sup></span>
ג רבי חנינא בן גמליאל משום אבותיו אומר מתפלל שמנה עשרה מפני שצ"ל הבדלה בחונן הדעת אמר ר"נ בר יצחק איהו אמר משום אבותיו וליה לא ס"ל
3 one recites in his prayers seven benedictions and makes confession; in the morning<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The 'Day' extending over a night and the following day. ');"><sup>6</sup></span> one recites seven benedictions and makes confession; during the additional prayer<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Musaf, which on Sabbaths and festivals is recited after the morning service. ');"><sup>7</sup></span> one recites seven benedictions and makes confession; in the afternoon prayer one recites seven benedictions and makes confession; In the concluding prayer<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Ne'ilah, the last prayer before sunset on the Day of Atonement. ');"><sup>8</sup></span> one recites seven benedictions and makes confession, and in the evening<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That follows the solemn day. ');"><sup>9</sup></span>
ד א"ל ר' ירמיה לר' זירא ואת לא תסברא דמאן תנא קטפא פירא ר"א הוא והתנן ר"א אומר המעמיד בשרף ערלה אסור
4 one recites seven benedictions embodying the substance of the Eighteen;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., instead of all the 'eighteen (now nineteen) benedictions' that are to be recited at ordinary weekday services (cf. P.B., p. 44ff) one recites on this occasion only the first three and the last three benedictions, and inserts between a shortened prayer embracing the salient features of the intermediate ones (cf. P.B., p. 55). ');"><sup>10</sup></span> and R. Hanina b. Gamaliel in the name of his ancestors ruled: One must recite in his prayers<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Even on the evening mentioned. ');"><sup>11</sup></span> all the eighteen benedictions because it is necessary to include habdalah<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The prayer added to the service at the conclusion of Sabbaths and festival days (cf. P.B., p. 46). ');"><sup>12</sup></span> in 'who favourest man with knowledge'?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Yoma 87b, Pes. 3a. Cf. P.B., l.e. In the shortened prayer, where this benediction is reduced to a few words, this cannot be done. Now, since R. Hanina here states that habdalah is to be included in the benediction 'who favourest etc.' how could it be said supra that he adopts the same line as R. Eliezer who requires it to be included in the benediction of thanksgiving? ');"><sup>13</sup></span>
ה אפילו תימא רבנן ע"כ לא פליגי רבנן עליה דר"א אלא בקטפא דגווזא אבל בקטפא דפירא מודו ליה דתנן א"ר יהושע שמעתי בפירוש שהמעמיד בשרף העלין בשרף העיקרין מותר בשרף הפגין אסור מפני שהוא פרי
5 — R. Nahman b. Isaac replied: He cited it<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The last quoted ruling. ');"><sup>14</sup></span> in the name of his ancestors but he himself<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Who is in agreement with R. Eliezer. ');"><sup>15</sup></span> does not uphold it.
ו ואיבעית אימא כי פליגי רבנן עליה דר"א באילן העושה פירות אבל באילן שאינו עושה פירות מודו דקטפו זהו פריו דתנן ר"ש אומר אין לקטף שביעית וחכ"א יש לקטף שביעית מפני שקטפו זהו פריו
6 Said R. Jeremiah to R. Zera:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Who objected (supra 8a) to R. Pedath's assertion as to the authorship of the ruling on balsam. ');"><sup>16</sup></span> But do you not yourself hold that he who taught that balsam was a fruit is R. Eliezer, seeing that we have learnt: R. Eliezer ruled, Milk curdled with the sap of <i>'orlah</i> is forbidden?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' 'Orlah I, 7; because the sap is considered a fruit to which the prohibitions of 'orlah apply. Balsam also being a sap, must not the ruling that balsam is a fruit obviously be that of R. Eliezer? ');"><sup>17</sup></span> — This<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The ruling just cited. ');"><sup>18</sup></span> might be said to agree even with the view of the Rabbis, since they differed from R. Eliezer only in respect of the sap of the tree but in the case of the sap of the fruit they agree with him, for we have learnt: R. Joshua stated, I have explicitly heard that milk curdled with the sap of the leaves or with the sap of the roots is permitted, but if it was curdled with the sap of unripe figs it is forbidden because the latter is regarded as a proper fruit.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' 'Orlah I, 7. ');"><sup>19</sup></span> And if you prefer I might reply: The Rabbis differ from R. Eliezer only in respect of a fruit producing tree but in the case of a tree that does not produce fruit they agree that its sap is regarded as its fruit, for we have learnt: R. Simeon ruled, Balsam is not subject to the laws of the Sabbatical Year<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' 'Because it is not regarded as a fruit', Sheb. VII, 6. ');"><sup>20</sup></span>
ז מאן חכמים לאו רבנן דפליגי עליה דר"א א"ל ההוא סבא הכי א"ר יוחנן מאן חכמים ר"א דאמר קטפו זהו פריו
7 and the Sages ruled, Balsam is subject to the laws of the Sabbatical Year because the sap of the tree is regarded as its fruit.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' This quotation does not actually occur in the Mishnah cited (cf. prev. n.) but is implied from the ruling of the first Tanna ibid. ');"><sup>21</sup></span> Now who are the Sages? Are they not in fact the Rabbis who differ<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In the case of other trees. ');"><sup>22</sup></span> from R. Eliezer?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Presumably they are. Thus it follows, as R. Zera submitted, that in the case of balsam the Rabbis are of the same opinion as R. Eliezer and that there is no need, therefore, to attribute to him the ruling which is in agreement with the halachah. ');"><sup>23</sup></span> — Thus, a certain elder replied to him, said R. Johanan, 'Who are the "Sages"? R. Eliezer who ruled that its balsam is its fruit'. But if by the 'Sages' R. Eliezer was meant what was the point in speaking of a tree that does not produce fruit seeing that even where a tree produces fruit its sap is regarded as its fruit? — He<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Eliezer. ');"><sup>24</sup></span>
ח אי ר"א מאי איריא אילן שאינו עושה פרי אפילו אילן העושה פרי קטפו זהו פריו לדבריהם דרבנן קאמר להו לדידי אפי' אילן העושה פירות נמי קטפו זהו פריו לדידכו אודו לי מיהת באילן שאינו עושה פירות דקטפו זהו פריו ורבנן אמרי ליה לא שנא
8 spoke to them<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Those who differed from him. ');"><sup>25</sup></span> according to the view of the Rabbis. 'According to my view' [he said in effect,] 'even in the case of a fruit producing tree its sap is regarded as its fruit, but according to your view<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Which does not regard the sap of a fruit bearing tree as fruit. ');"><sup>26</sup></span> agree with me at least in this case of a tree that produces no fruit that its sap is its fruit. But the Rabbis told him: No difference is made.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Between the two kinds of tree. In neither case can sap be regarded as fruit. ');"><sup>27</sup></span> WHO IS REGARDED AS A 'VIRGIN'? ANY WOMAN WHO HAS NOT YET OBSERVED etc. Our Rabbis taught: [If a virgin] married and observed a discharge of blood that was due to the marriage, or if when she bore a child she observed a discharge of blood that was due to the birth, she is still called a 'virgin', because the virgin of whom the Rabbis spoke is one that is a virgin as regards menstrual blood but not one who is so in regard to the blood of virginity.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Or birth. ');"><sup>28</sup></span>
ט איזו היא בתולה כל שלא ראתה כו' ת"ר נשאת וראתה דם מחמת נישואין ילדה וראתה דם מחמת לידה עדיין אני קורא לה בתולה שהרי בתולה שאמרו בתולת דמים ולא בתולת בתולים
9 Can this, however, be correct?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'I am not'. ');"><sup>29</sup></span> Has not R. Kahana in fact stated, 'A Tanna taught: There are three kinds of virgin, the human virgin, the soil virgin and the sycamore virgin. The "human virgin" is one that never<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'all the time that she (had) not'. ');"><sup>30</sup></span> had any sexual intercourse, the practical issue<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Between being regarded as a virgin or not. ');"><sup>31</sup></span>
י איני והאמר רב כהנא תנא ג' בתולות הן בתולת אדם בתולת קרקע בתולת שקמה בתולת אדם כל זמן שלא נבעלה נפקא מינה לכ"ג א"נ לכתובתה מאתים
10 being her eligibility to marry a High Priest<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Cf. Lev. XXI, 13. ');"><sup>32</sup></span> or else her claim to a <i>kethubah</i> of two hundred <i>zuz</i>;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Only a virgin is entitled to that sum. One who is no virgin is entitled to one hundred zuz only. ');"><sup>33</sup></span> the "virgin soil" is one that had never<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'all the time that she (had) not'. ');"><sup>30</sup></span>
יא בתולת קרקע כ"ז שלא נעבדה נפקא מינה לנחל איתן א"נ למקח וממכר
11 been cultivated, the practical issue<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Between being regarded as a virgin or not. ');"><sup>31</sup></span>
יב בתולת שקמה כ"ז שלא נקצצה נפקא מינה למקח וממכר אי נמי למקצצה בשביעית כדתנן אין קוצצין בתולת שקמה בשביעית מפני שהיא עבודה ואם איתא ליתני נמי הא
12 being its designation as "a rough valley"34 or else its legal status as regards purchase and sale;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' If a plot of land has been sold or bought as 'virgin soil' it must be one that has never before been cultivated. ');"><sup>35</sup></span> the "virgin sycamore" is one that has never<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'all the time that she (had) not'. ');"><sup>36</sup></span> been cut,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since the cutting causes new growth. ');"><sup>37</sup></span>
יג אמר ר"נ בר יצחק כי קתני מידי דלית ליה שם לווי אבל מידי דאית ליה שם לווי לא קתני רב ששת בריה דרב אידי אמר כי קתני מידי דתלי במעשה מידי דלא תלי במעשה לא קתני
13 the practical issue<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Between being regarded as a virgin or not. ');"><sup>38</sup></span> being its legal status as regards purchase and sale<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Cf. supra n. 10 mut. mut. ');"><sup>39</sup></span> or else the permissibility to cut it<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since the cutting causes new growth. ');"><sup>37</sup></span> in the Sabbatical Year, as we have learnt: A virgin sycamore may not be cut in the Sabbatical Year because such cutting is regarded as cultivation'.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Which is forbidden (cf. Lev. XXV, 4); Sheb. IV, 5. ');"><sup>40</sup></span>
יד רבי חנינא בריה דרב איקא אמר כי קתני מידי דלא הדר לברייתו מידי דהדר לברייתו לא קתני רבינא אמר כי קתני מידי דקפיד עליה זבינא מידי דלא קפיד עליה זבינא לא קתני
14 Now if this<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That there is also a virginity as regards menstrual blood. ');"><sup>41</sup></span> were correct why did he<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Kahana who only spoke of three kinds of virgin. ');"><sup>42</sup></span> not mention this one also? — R. Nahman b. Isaac replied: He only mentioned such as has no special<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'attached', 'accompanying'. ');"><sup>43</sup></span> name<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' 'Virgin' alone being sufficient. ');"><sup>44</sup></span>
טו ולא קפדי והתניא רבי חייא אומר כשם שהשאור יפה לעיסה כך דמים יפין לאשה ותניא משום ר"מ כל אשה שדמיה מרובין בניה מרובין אלא כי קתני מידי דקפיץ עליה זבינא מידי דלא קפיץ עליה זבינא לא קתני
15 but one which bears a special<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'attached', 'accompanying'. ');"><sup>43</sup></span> name<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Such as the 'virgin in respect of menstrual blood' whom 'virgin' alone would not sufficiently describe. ');"><sup>45</sup></span> he does not mention. R. Shesheth son of R. Idi replied: He<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Kahana who only spoke of three kinds. ');"><sup>46</sup></span> only mentioned those, the loss of whose virginity<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'a thing that'. ');"><sup>47</sup></span> is dependent on an act<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Such as intercourse, cultivation or cutting. ');"><sup>48</sup></span> but one the loss of whose virginity<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'a thing that'. ');"><sup>47</sup></span>
טז ת"ר איזוהי בתולת קרקע כל שמעלה רשושין ואין עפרה תיחוח נמצא בה חרס בידוע שנעבדה צונמא הרי זו בתולת קרקע
16 is not dependent on an act<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' As is the case with a discharge of menstrual blood which is a natural and involuntary process. ');"><sup>49</sup></span> he does not mention. R. Hanina son of R. Ika replied: He<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Kahana who only spoke of three kinds. ');"><sup>46</sup></span>
יז מעוברת משיודע עוברה וכמה הכרת העובר סומכוס אומר משום רבי מאיר שלשה חדשים ואע"פ שאין ראיה לדבר זכר לדבר שנאמר (בראשית לח, כד) ויהי כמשלש חדשים וגומר
17 only mentioned those<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'a thing that'. ');"><sup>47</sup></span> which do not change<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' After intercourse, cultivation and cutting respectively. ');"><sup>50</sup></span> into their original condition<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'to its creation', neither the woman nor the soil nor the sycamore can (cf. prev. n.) change into her or its original condition. ');"><sup>51</sup></span> but one which does change to its original condition<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' A woman in old age loses her flow and changes, in this respect, into a condition similar to her original virginity. ');"><sup>52</sup></span> he does not mention. Rabina replied: He<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Kahana who only spoke of three kinds. ');"><sup>53</sup></span> only mentioned that to which a purchaser is likely to object<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' No one who could help it would be likely to marry a non-virgin or to buy land that was already exploited or a sycamore that was cut. ');"><sup>54</sup></span>
יח זכר לדבר קרא כתיב וראיה גדולה היא משום דאיכא דילדה לט' ואיכא דילדה לשבעה
18 but that to which a purchaser is not likely to object<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' One who marries a virgin does not care whether or not she ever had her menstrual flow. ');"><sup>55</sup></span> he does not mention. But do not people object?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Cf. prev. n. ');"><sup>56</sup></span> Was it not in fact taught, 'R. Hiyya stated: As leaven is wholesome for the dough so is menstrual blood wholesome for a woman'<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Keth. 10b. ');"><sup>57</sup></span>
יט ת"ר הרי שהיתה בחזקת מעוברת וראתה דם ואח"כ הפילה רוח או כל דבר שאינו של קיימא הרי היא בחזקתה ודיה שעתה
19 and it was also taught in the name of R. Meir, 'Every woman who has an abundance of menstrual blood has many children'?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Keth. 10b. ');"><sup>57</sup></span> — Rather say: He<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Kahana who only spoke of three kinds. ');"><sup>53</sup></span>
כ ואע"ג שאין ראיה לדבר זכר לדבר שנאמר (ישעיהו כו, יח) הרינו חלנו כמו ילדנו רוח מאי זכר לדבר הרי ראיה גדולה היא כי כתיב האי קרא בזכרים כתיב
20 only mentioned that which a purchaser is anxious to acquire<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'that&nbsp;… jumps on it', people are anxious to marry a virgin, to buy a plot of land that was never before exploited and a sycamore that was never before cut. ');"><sup>58</sup></span> but that<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' A virgin who has no menstrual flow. ');"><sup>59</sup></span> which a purchaser is not anxious to acquire<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For the reasons indicated by R. Hiyya and R. Meir supra. ');"><sup>60</sup></span> he does not mention. Our Rabbis taught: What is meant by a virgin soil? One which<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' On being broken up. ');"><sup>61</sup></span>
כא ורמינהי קשתה שנים ולשלישי הפילה רוח או כל דבר שאינו של קיימא הרי זו יולדת בזוב ואי אמרת לידה מעלייתא היא
21 turns up clods<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That need crushing. ');"><sup>62</sup></span> and whose earth is not loose. If<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' On being broken up. ');"><sup>61</sup></span> a potsherd is found in it, it may be known that it had once been cultivated;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' How else could the potsherd have found its way into it? ');"><sup>63</sup></span> if flint, it is undoubtedly<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'behold this'. ');"><sup>64</sup></span> virgin soil. 'A WOMAN IN PREGNANCY'? ONE WHOSE EMBRYO 'CAN BE DISCERNED. At what stage<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'and how much'. ');"><sup>65</sup></span> is the embryo discernible? — Symmachus citing R. Meir replied: Three months after conception. And though there is no actual proof for this statement there is an allusion<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'remembrance'. ');"><sup>66</sup></span> to it, for it is said in Scripture, And it came to pass about three months after<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That it was told&nbsp;… she is with child, Gen, XXXVIII, 24. ');"><sup>67</sup></span> etc. 'An allusion to it' [you say], is not this a text of Scripture and a most reliable<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'great'. ');"><sup>68</sup></span> proof? — [It can only be regarded as an allusion] because some women<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'there is'. ');"><sup>69</sup></span> give birth after nine months and others after seven months.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And it might have been assumed that the three months of the text (representing a third of nine) applied to the former only while in the case of the latter the stage of recognition begins after 7/3 = 2 1/3, months. ');"><sup>70</sup></span> Our Rabbis taught: If a woman was<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'behold she was'. ');"><sup>71</sup></span> in a condition of presumptive pregnancy and after observing a discharge of blood she miscarried an inflated object<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'wind'. ');"><sup>72</sup></span> or any other object which had no vitality<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'existence'. ');"><sup>73</sup></span> she<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Despite the fact that her pregnancy, as is now evident, was not natural. ');"><sup>74</sup></span> is still deemed to be<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' As regards retrospective uncleanness. ');"><sup>75</sup></span> in the condition of her presumptive pregnancy and it suffices for her to reckon her period of menstrual uncleanness from the time of her observation of the discharge.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Not twenty-four hours retrospectively as is the case with one who is not pregnant. ');"><sup>76</sup></span> And though there is no actual proof for this ruling<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That an inflated object (cf. supra n. 12) is regarded as a viable embryo in respect of pregnancy. ');"><sup>77</sup></span> there is an allusion<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'remembrance', ');"><sup>78</sup></span> to it, for it is said in Scripture, We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Emphasis on the last word. Isa. XXVI, 18. Tosef. Nid. I. ');"><sup>79</sup></span> But why only 'an allusion to it' seeing that the text provides actual<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'great'. ');"><sup>80</sup></span> proof? — That text was in fact written about males.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In whose case conception and birth are mere metaphorical expressions. ');"><sup>81</sup></span> I would, however, point out an incongruity: If a woman was in hard labour<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Accompanied by a flow of blood. ');"><sup>82</sup></span> for two days<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' During the eleven days in which she is susceptible to the uncleanness of a zabah (v. foll. nn.). ');"><sup>83</sup></span> and on the third day<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' After a further discharge of blood, so that (cf. prev. n. but one) her bleeding and pain extended over three consecutive days. ');"><sup>84</sup></span> she miscarried an inflated object or any thing that had no vitality, she<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since there was no proper birth though she had no relief from her pain between the time of the discharge and the miscarriage. ');"><sup>85</sup></span> is regarded as bearing in the condition of a zabah.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. Glos. Sc. she must count seven days and bring the sacrifice prescribed for a zabah before she can attain cleanness. ');"><sup>86</sup></span> Now if you maintain that such miscarriage is a proper birth