Chullin 184

שאין כותבין כתובה לזכרים ואחת שאין שוקלין בשר המת במקולין ואחת שמכבדין את התורה:

they do not draw up a kethubah document for males,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Although they are suspected of indecent practices and sodomy they do not go to that length of writing a 'marriage' deed for the purpose. vcu,f here means a marriage deed; for specific meanings v. Introduction to Keth., Sonc. ed., p. XI, n. 1.');">¹</span>

ואינו נוהג בעוף:

they do not weigh flesh of the dead in the market,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Although they eat human flesh they do not sell it openly in the market. Rashi also suggests: They do not sell the flesh of an animal that had not been slain but had died a natural death.');">²</span>

והא קא חזינן דאית ליה

and (iii) they respect the Torah.

אית ליה ולא עגיל

IT DOES NOT APPLY TO BIRDS, [BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO SPOON-SHAPED HIP].

בעי רבי ירמיה

But we see that they have it? - They have it indeed, but it is not convex.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The muscles around the upper part of the hip bone of a bird are flat and not rounded and raised like a ball. V. supra p. 500, n. 2.');">³</span>

אית ליה לעוף ועגיל אית ליה לבהמה ולא עגיל מאי בתר דידיה אזלינן או בתר מיניה אזלינן

R'Jeremiah raised the question.

תיקו:

What if a bird happened to have it convex, or if an animal happened to have it [flat and] not convex?

ונוהג בשליל:

Do we consider the particular creature by itself, or do we consider the class to which it belongs? - It is undecided.

אמר שמואל

IT ALSO APPLIES TO A FOETUS.

וחלבו מותר לדברי הכל

Samuel said: The ruling: ITS FAT IS PERMITTED, is agreed to by all.

חלבו דמאי

What fat?

אילימא דשליל והא מיפלג פליגי ביה

Should you say, that of a foetus, but this is a matter of dispute.

דתניא

For it has been taught:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. supra 74b; Tosef. Hul. VII.');">⁴</span>

נוהג בשליל וחלבו אסור דברי רבי מאיר

It applies to a foetus, and its<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Sc. of a foetus.');">⁶</span>

רבי יהודה אומר

fat is forbidden: so R'Meir.

אינו נוהג בשליל וחלבו מותר

R'Judah says: It does not apply to a foetus, and its<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Sc. of a foetus.');">⁶</span>

ואמר ר' אלעזר אמר ר' אושעיא

fat is permitted.

מחלוקת בבן תשעה חי והלך ר"מ לשיטתו

And R'Eleazar said in the name of R'Oshaia: They differ in the case of a nine months' fetus which was [extracted] alive [from its dam's womb]; R'Meir therefore ruling according to his principle<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Meir holds that a nine months' foetus which was extracted alive out of the womb is not rendered permitted by the slaughtering of its dam but must be slaughtered itself and is in every respect like an ordinary animal, hence its fat is forbidden and also the sciatic nerve.');">⁷</span>

ורבי יהודה לשיטתו ואלא חלבו דגיד הא מיפלג פליגי בה

and R'Judah according to his.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Judah maintains that this foetus is permitted by the slaughtering of its dam, and the whole of it may be eaten, the fat as well as the sciatic nerve.');">⁸</span>

דתניא

And should you say, the fat of the nerve, but there too there is a dispute about it.

גיד הנשה מחטט אחריו בכל מקום שהוא וחותך שמנו מעיקרו דברי ר"מ

For it has been taught: As to the sciatic nerve, one must follow it up as far as it goes and must cut away the fat thereof at its source;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Wherever the fat is found, in all its ramifications.');">⁹</span>

רבי יהודה אומר

so R'Meir.

גוממו עם השופי

R'Judah says: One merely cuts it away from off the cap of the bone!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., only that fat which is in close proximity to the nerve must be cut away, and this only for appearance sake, since strictly the whole of the fat is permitted.');">¹⁰</span>

לעולם חלבו דגיד ומודה שמואל דלר"מ מדרבנן אסור

- In truth, it refers to the fat of the nerve; Samuel however agrees that according to R'Meir it is forbidden by Rabbinic decree.

דתניא

For it has been taught: Its fat is permitted, but Israel being a holy people have regarded it as forbidden.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Pes. ');">¹¹</span>

ושמנו מותר וישראל קדושים נהגו בו איסור

And presumably the author [of this Baraitha] is R'Meir who maintains that by the law of the Torah it is permitted but is forbidden by Rabbinic decree! But whence this?

מאי לאו ר"מ היא דאמר מותר מן התורה ואסור מדרבנן

Perhaps it is R'Judah, but according to R'Meir it is forbidden even by the law of the Torah! - You cannot think of this; for it has been taught: As to the sciatic nerve, one must follow it up as far as it goes, and its fat is permitted.

ממאי

Now whom have you heard say that it is necessary to 'follow it up? ' R'Meir; and here it expressly says, its fat is permitted.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Accordingly R. Meir's view is that strictly by the law of the Torah it is permitted, but it is only forbidden by Rabbinic decree. This then was the purport of Samuel's teaching.');">¹²</span>

דילמא רבי יהודה היא אבל לרבי מאיר מדאורייתא נמי אסיר

R'Isaac B'Samuel B'Martha said in the name of Rab: The Torah forbade only the branch nerves of it.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Only the nerves that branch off the main sciatic nerve are prohibited, for these are tender and could impart a flavour into the substance that is cooked with it, but the actual sciatic nerve is hard like wood and is not forbidden. vh,uuf');">¹³</span>

לא ס"ד דתניא

Ulla said, [Although] it is like wood the Torah makes one liable for it.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' But the branch nerves are permitted. As to whether or not they are prohibited Rabbinically v. Tosaf. s.v. .');">¹⁴</span>

גיד הנשה מחטט אחריו בכל מקום שהוא ושמנו מותר

Abaye said: The view of Ulla is the more probable, for R'Shesheth said in the name of R'Assi.

מאן שמעת ליה דאית ליה חטיטה

The veins in fat are forbidden but one is not liable [to the penalty of Kareth] on account of them.

ר"מ וקאמר

It is evident therefore that the Divine Law forbade the fa but not the veins, likewise the Divine Law forbade the nerve but not the branch nerves.

שמנו מותר

[To turn to] the main text.

אמר רב יצחק בר שמואל בר מרתא אמר רב

R'Shesheth said in the name of R'Assi: The veins in fat are forbidden but one not liable on account of them'.

לא אסרה תורה אלא קנוקנות שבו

The veins in the kidney are forbidden but one is not liable on account of them.

עולא אמר

As to the white substance of the kidney<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Which is in the middle of the kidney but goes deep into the actual kidney.');">¹⁵</span>

עץ הוא והתורה חייבה עליו

there is a difference of opinion between Rabbi and R'Hiyya, one forbids it and the other permits it.

אמר אביי

Rabbah used to scrape it all away.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Even that which is deep in the kidney.');">¹⁶</span>

כוותיה דעולא מסתברא דאמר רב ששת אמר רב אסי

R'Johanan also used to scrape it all away.

חוטין שבחלב אסורין ואין חייבין עליהן אלמא חלב אמר רחמנא ולא חוטין

R'Assi used to cut away only the surface thereof.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., only that portion which is in the middle of the kidney but not that which is covered up by the kidney.');">¹⁷</span>

הכא נמי גיד אמר רחמנא ולא קנוקנות

Abaye said: The view of R'Assi is the more probable, for R'Abba said in the name of Rab Judah on the authority of Samuel,

גופא אמר רב ששת אמר רב אסי

חוטין שבחלב אסורין ואין חייבין עליהן

שבכוליא אסורין ואין חייבין עליהן

לובן כוליא רבי ורבי חייא חד אסר וחד שרי

רבה ממרטט ליה ר' יוחנן ממרטט ליה רבי אסי גאים ליה

אמר אביי

כוותיה דרבי אסי מסתברא דאמר רבי אבא אמר רב יהודה אמר שמואל