Chullin 257

טומאת בית הסתרים היא וטומאת בית הסתרים לא מטמא

But it had only [made] covert [contact with] uncleanness<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The contact between the morsel and the limb was made only at the place where subsequently the severance is to be made, and that contact was not exposed. Cf. supra 72b.');">¹</span>

אמר ליה

and covert [contact with] uncleanness does not render unclean'?

אף לדידי קשיא לי ושאילתיה לרבי אבא בר ממל ואמר לי

Said the other, 'I, too, had this difficulty and I put it to R'Abba B'Memel, and he told me that this ruling was in accordance with R'Meir's view who maintains that covert [contact with] Uncleanness does render unclean'.

הא מני רבי מאיר היא דאמר טומאת בית הסתרים מטמא

He said: 'Indeed on many occasions he told me that too, but I replied to him that R'Meir surely made a distinction between that which needed to be rendered susceptible [to uncleanness by a liquid] and that which did not need to be so rendered susceptible',<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Meir would agree that where after severance from the limb the part has to be rendered susceptible to uncleanness by water or some other liquid, as is the case here (cf. the Mishnah supra ');">²</span>

אמר ליה

Raba said: But what was the objection, perhaps it was rendered susceptible to uncleanness?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., the morsel before it was severed from the limb was moistened with water.');">³</span>

ולאו זימנין סגיאין אמרה קמאי ואמרי ליה

Whereupon Rabbah son of Hanan asked Raba: Why is it at all necessary that it be rendered susceptible?

שני ליה לר' מאיר בין טומאה דבעיא הכשר ובין טומאה דלא בעיא הכשר

Originally<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'together with its father'.');">⁴</span>

אמר רבא

it conveyed the graver uncleanness!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The morsel when joined to the limb was regarded as a primary source of uncleanness to convey the graver uncleanness, and it is established that whatsoever will convey the graver uncleanness later on does not require to be rendered susceptible to uncleanness by water, v. supra 121a; how much more so this morsel which in the past did convey the graver uncleanness!');">⁵</span>

ומאי קושיא

- He replied.

דלמא בשהוכשר

But then it served only as wood.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., it had no individual character but formed together with the bones and sinews an entire limb. It is only now on being severed from the limb that it assumes a new character, viz., that of a foodstuff, and like all foodstuffs it requires moistening in order to be rendered susceptible to uncleanness.');">⁶</span>

אמר ליה רבה בר רב חנן לרבא

Abaye said: Behold they have said<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Pes. 45b.');">⁷</span>

למה לי הכשר

that if a man especially set aside a lump of leaven to be used as a seat, he has thereby nullified it.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., it no longer counts as leaven and by using it on the Passover one does not transgress the prohibition of Ex. XII, 19, for it is no longer a foodstuff but converted into a seat. As a seat it would contract midras uncleanness (which is a grave uncleanness) if a man that has an issue sat upon it.');">⁸</span>

הרי מטמא טומאה חמורה אגב אביו

The uncleanness thereof [I say] is not decreed by the law of the Torah; for should you say it is so by the law of the Torah then we should have a case of foodstuffs being able to convey the graver uncleanness [later on]!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Which would conflict with the principle laid down supra 121a, quoted supra p. 725, n. 5.');">⁹</span>

אמר ליה

- [No.

כששימש מעשה עץ שימש

Not necessarily so].

אמר אביי הרי אמרו

For it now serves as wood.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' When converted into a seat it has lost all the characteristics of a foodstuff and has become quite a new article, and as such can convey the graver uncleanness. Accordingly the uncleanness spoken of can well be by the law of the Torah. ,cure,');">¹⁰</span>

כופת שאור שיחדה לישיבה בטלה טומאתה

Abaye said: Behold they have said that foodstuffs used as offerings to idols render unclean [men and vessels that are] in the same tent.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The words 'men and vessels that are in the same tent' are omitted in MS.M. Cf. Tosaf. supra ');">¹¹</span>

לאו דאורייתא דאי סלקא דעתך דאורייתא מצינו לאוכלין שמטמאין טומאה חמורה

This uncleanness [I say] is not decreed by the law of the Torah; for should you say it is so by the law of the Torah then we should have a case of foodstuffs being able to convey the graver uncleanness [later on]! - [No.

כששימש מעשה עץ שימש

Not necessarily so].

אמר אביי הרי אמרו

For they now serve as wood.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since it has been used for idolatrous purposes it is forbidden for all purposes, consequently it has lost its character as a foodstuff, and it is on all fours with any article that has been worshipped.');">¹²</span>

תקרובת עבודת כוכבים של אוכלין מטמאין באוהל

Abaye said: Behold they have stated that foodstuffs that adhere closely [to vessels] are like the vessels themselves.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' E.g., pieces of dough found in the cracks of the kneading vessels are regarded as part of the vessel and, if unclean, can render unclean men and vessels. Cf. Pes. 45a, 46a. d" k');"="">¹³</span>

טומאתה לאו דאורייתא דאי סלקא דעתך דאורייתא מצינו לאוכלין שמטמאין טומאה חמורה

The uncleanness [in such a case I say] is not decreed by the law of the Torah; for should you say it is so by the law of the Torah then we should have a case of foodstuffs being able to convey the graver uncleanness [later on]! - [No.

כששימש מעשה עץ שימש

Not necessarily so].

אמר אביי הרי אמרו

For they now serve as wood.

חבורי אוכלין ככלים דמו

R'Papa said to Raba: In view of that which has been taught<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The reference given in the margin is to 'Uk. III, 3, but it is not to be found in the Mishnah in the form quoted. V. Tosaf. Nid. ');">¹⁴</span>

טומאתן לאו דאורייתא דאי סלקא דעתך דאורייתא מצינו לאוכל שמטמא טומאה חמורה

viz. : The forbidden fat of a carcass [of a cle animal], in villages,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Where the fat is rarely eaten even by gentiles; v. supra p. 719, n. 5.');">¹⁵</span>

כששימש מעשה עץ שימש

needs the intention [to be used as food] and also needs to be made susceptible to uncleanness, [I say] the uncleanness that [the fat] conveys by reason of the kidney within it,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The fat of a carcass cannot convey uncleanness as nebelah save that which encloses the kidney, and that is because of the kidney that is inside it; v. supra 126b.');">¹⁶</span>

א"ל רב פפא לרבא הא דתניא

is not decreed by the law of the Torah; for should you say it is so by the law of the Torah then we should have a case of foodstuffs being able to convey the graver uncleanness!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And this cannot be for then it would not need to be made susceptible to uncleanness, in accordance with the rule quoted, supra 121a.');">¹⁷</span>

חלב נבלה בכפרים צריך מחשבה והכשר

- [No, not necessarily so].

טומאתו אגב כוליא לאו דאורייתא דאי סלקא דעתך דאורייתא מצינו לאוכל שמטמא טומאה חמורה

For it now serves as wood.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The fat that encloses the kidney conveys uncleanness not by virtue of its being a foodstuff but, on the contrary, rather as a bone or wood which serves as a protection to the kidney which is nebelah. u,tnuy');">¹⁸</span>

כששימש מעשה עץ שימש

R'Mattenah said: Behold they have spoken of a house roofed with stalks;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' So MS.M. and Rashi. The text in cur. edd. reads: 'If a house was roofed with stalks they become clean'. V. Rashi s.v. .');">¹⁹</span>

אמר רב מתנה הרי אמרו

the uncleanness thereof<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The stalks, although they contain grain, can no longer be regarded as foodstuffs but form the roof of the house; and if the house was stricken with a leprous plague, this roof as well as the walls and the rest of the house would be unclean and render men and vessels unclean.');">²⁰</span>

בית שסככו בזרעים טהרו

[I say] is not decreed by the law of the Torah; for should you say that it is so by the law of the Torah then we should have a case of stalks conveying the graver uncleanness! - [No, not necessarily so].

טומאתו לאו דאורייתא דאי סלקא דעתך דאורייתא מצינו לזרעים שמטמא טומאה חמורה

For they now serve as wood.

כששימש מעשה עץ שימש:

R'SIMEON DECLARES IT CLEAN.

ר"ש מטהר:

But whichever view you take [it is difficult]: If at death the limb is considered as already fallen off then it should be unclean as a limb severed from a living animal, and if at death it is not considered as already fallen off then it should be unclean as a limb severed from a carcass! - R'Simeon refers to the first clause [which reads]: LIMBS OR PIECES OF FLESH WHICH HANG LOOSE FROM THE [LIVING] ANIMAL ARE UNCLEAN IN RESPECT OF FOOD UNCLEANNESS WHILST THEY ARE IN THEIR PLACE, AND REQUIRE TO BE RENDERED SUSCEPTIBLE TO UNCLEANNESS.

מה נפשך אי מיתה עושה ניפול ליטמא משום אבר מן החי

But R'Simeon declares them clean.

אי אין מיתה עושה ניפול ליטמא משום אבר מן הנבלה

R'Assi said in the name of R'Johanan.

ר"ש ארישא קאי האבר והבשר המדולדלין בבהמה מטמא טומאת אוכלין במקומן וצריכין הכשר

What is the reason for R'Simeon's view?

ורבי שמעון מטהר

Because Scripture says.

אמר רבי אסי אמר רבי יוחנן

All food therein which may be eaten;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lev. XI, 34.');">²¹</span>

מ"ט דר"ש אמר קרא (ויקרא יא, לד) מכל האוכל אשר יאכל אוכל שאתה יכול להאכילו לאחרים קרוי אוכל אוכל שאי אתה יכול להאכילו

therefore, food which you may give others<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Sc. gentiles.');">²²</span> to eat is termed food, but food which you may not give