Keritot 15

<big><strong>גמ׳</strong></big> תניא אמרו להן ב"ה לב"ש

<big><b>GEMARA: </b></big>It has been taught: Beth Hillel said to Beth Shammai: Lo, it says, 'or for a daughter',<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lev. XII, 6. The whole phrase 'for a son or for a daughter' is superfluous.');">¹</span>

הרי הוא אומר (ויקרא יב, ו) לבת לרבות אור שמונים ואחד

to include the eve of the eighty-first day.

ר' הושעיא הוה שכיח קמיה דבר קפרא שבקיה ואתא קמיה דרבי חייא

R'Hoshaia was a frequent visitor to Bar Kappara; he then left him and joined R'Hiyya.

יומא חד פגע ביה בעא מיניה

One day he met [Bar Kappara] and asked him: If a zab had three [new] issues during the night of the eighth day,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Cf. Lev. XV, 14. After three issues he is unclean so as to require seven clean days, and an offering on the eighth.');">²</span>

זב שראה ג' ראיות בליל ח' מה ב"ה אומרים בדבר זה

what would be the view of Beth Hillel in this case?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., is he liable to another offering for the second set of issues?');">³</span>

טעמייהו דב"ה במפלת בלילה משום דכתיב לבת אבל זב שראה ג' ראיות בליל ח' פטרי דלא מייתרי קראי או דלמא לא שנא

Is the reason of Beth Hillel in the case of an abortion on the night [of the eighty-first day] because it is written, 'or for a daughter', but in the case of a zab there will sacrifice, since there is no superfluous text in connection therewith; or perhaps there is no difference [between these two cases]? - Replied to him Bar Kappara: What did the Babylonian<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Viz., R. Hiyya, cf. Suk. 20a.');">⁴</span>

א"ל בר קפרא

say in this matter?

מה בבלי אומר בדבר זה

R'Hoshaia was silent and said nothing.

אישתיק רבי הושעיא לא אמר כלום

Then Bar Kappara said to him: 'We have still to depend upon the words of Iyya!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Derisive pronunciation of Hiyya, who as a Babylonian could not utter gutturals; v. M.K. 16a. The text, however, is not clear.');">⁵</span>

א"ל בר קפרא

Let us return to that which has been said before.'

צריכין לדברי עייא

Lo, it says, or for a daughter, to include the eve of the eighty-first day'.

נחזור על הראשונות

Are we to say that this is a point of dispute between Tannaim?

הרי הוא אומר לבת לרבות אור שמונים ואחד

If a zab had three issues in the night of the eighth day, one [Baraitha] teaches, He has to bring an offering, whereas another [Baraitha] teaches, He is exempted.

נימא כתנאי

Now, do they not differ in the following: The one which teaches that he is liable holds that the night does not render a period wanting in time;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., whenever a certain period has been fixed after the elapse of which one is liable to a certain duty, e.g., the offering of a sacrifice, and there is only a night intervening, the period may be regarded as accomplished. The new issues therefore involve a new offering.');">⁶</span>

זב שראה ג' ראיות בליל ח' תני חדא

and the one which teaches that he is exempt holds that the night renders a period wanting in time!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The new issues are regarded as falling within the period of seven days resulting from the former uncleanness. No new offering is therefore required. Yet in the case of the abortions dealt with in our Mishnah there is liability in the view of Beth Hillel to a new set of offerings, on account of the text, 'or for a daughter'.');">⁷</span>

מביא ותניא אידך

- Said R'Huna B'Aha in the name of R'Eleazar: These Tannaim [indeed] hold that the night renders a period wanting in time, but the one which teaches that he is liable, deals with a zab of two issues,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Such a person is unclean and must count seven days, but is not liable to a sacrifice. If on the night of the eighth day he perceives three issues, these render him liable to an offering.');">⁸</span>

אינו מביא

and the one which teaches that he is exempt deals with a zab of three issues.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For which he was already liable to a sacrifice; and the subsequent issues do not render him liable to bring a second offering.');">⁹</span>

מאי לאו תנאי היא דהא דתניא מביא קסבר לילה אין מחוסר זמן והדתני אין מביא קסבר

But need the case of a zab of two issues be stated?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' It is self-evident that he is liable to an offering.');">¹⁰</span>

לילה מחוסר זמן

- This is what we are informed: Only when he perceives [three issues] on the night of the eighth day; but if on the day of the seventh,he is not liable; for he holds that an issue which disturbs [the period of cleanness]<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The issue on the seventh day destroys the period of cleanness of seven days, and they must be started again.');">¹¹</span>

אמר רב הונא בר אחא א"ר אלעזר

does not render one liable to an offering.

הני תנאי סברי

Said Raba: You have explained the teaching that one is exempted from an offering as referring to a zab of three issues; why then has this law not been stated in conjunction with the [Mishnah]: 'Five who bring one sacrifice for many transgressions'?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Infra 9a. Here, too, one is liable to one offering although more than three issues were perceived.');">¹²</span>

לילה מחוסר זמן

- Because this law is not absolute;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., there are instances when one is liable even for issues on the night of the eighth day. viz., if two issues were perceived on the eighth day, the issue of the previous night combines with these, and he is liable to a new offering.');">¹³</span>

והא דתניא מביא בזב בעל ב' ראיות והדתניא אין מביא בזב בעל ג' ראיות

for R'Johanan said: If he perceived one issue in the night<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Viz., the night of the eighth day.');">¹⁴</span>

זב בעל ב' ראיות מאי למימרא

and two during the day,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Viz., the eighth day.');">¹⁵</span>

הא קמ"ל

he is liable; two in the night and one during the day, he is not liable.

דוקא ראה בליל ח' אבל ביממא דז' לא קסבר

Said R'Joseph: You can prove that one is liable if one [was perceived] by night and two during the day, for the first issue is regarded as a mere discharge of semen,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Rendering one unclean only for one day, and not liable to an offering.');">¹⁶</span>

כל ראייה שסותרת אין מביאה לידי קרבן

and yet if two more issues are perceived, they combine one with the other.

אמר רבא

[Against this] said R'Shesheth son of R'Idi: What argument is this?

אמאי אוקימתא להא דתניא אין מביא בזב בעל ג' ראיות ליתנייה גבי חמשה מביאין קרבן אחד על עבירות הרבה

The first issue of a zab took place at a time fit for offerings, but in the instance of 'one by night', wh the issue was at a time not fit for offerings, had not R'Johanan taught us that they combine with one another, I would have thought that they do not combine.

לא פסיקא דא"ר יוחנן

But does R'Johanan hold that the night renders a period wanting in time?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For he holds, for two issues during the night and one during the day, he is exempted.');">¹⁷</span>

ראה אחת בלילה וב' ביום מביא ב' בלילה ואחת ביום אין מביא

Did not Hezekiah say:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Hag. 9b.');">¹⁸</span>

אמר רב יוסף

If he [the nazirite] became unclean during the eighth day,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' A nazirite who becomes unclean has to count seven clean days, bring an offering on the eighth day and begin to count again his period of naziriteship.');">¹⁹</span>

תדע דאחת בלילה וב' ביום מביא דהא ראייה ראשונה שכבת זרע בעלמא ואילו חזי תרתין אחרנייתא מצטרפי להו

he has to bring a [second] offering; if on the night [of the eighth day], he does not bring [an offering]; while R'Johanan holds, Even on the night [of the eighth day] he has to bring?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Obviously this opinion cannot agree with the principle that the night renders the period wanting in time.');">²⁰</span>

אמר רב ששת בריה דרב אידי

- When R'Johanan said if [he perceived] two by night and one during the day he has to bring [an offering], it was according to him who holds [that the night] renders a period wanting in time.

מידי איריא

But according to him is not this obvious? - [The case] of one by night and two during the day was necessary [to be mentioned]; for I might have thought, since the one issue was not at a time fit for offerings, there is no combination.

ראייה ראשונה של זב חזייה בזמן חיובא

Therefore we are told [that th is not so].

אחת בלילה כיון דלאו בזמן חיובא חזייה אי לאו דאשמעינן רבי יוחנן דמצטרף ה"א לא תצטרף

<big><b>MISHNAH: </b></big>IF A WOMAN HAD FIVE DOUBTFUL BIRTHS<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Such as enumerated in the last but one MISHNAH:');">²¹</span>

ומי א"ר יוחנן לילה מחוסר זמן

OR FIVE DOUBTFUL ISSUES,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., it was doubtful whether the issues took place during the period of menstruation, in which case the uncleanness does not require offerings, or outside that period; v. Lev. XV, 25.');">²²</span>

והאמר חזקיה

SHE NEED BRING BUT ONE OFFERING,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For all the five cases. The sacrifice is offered out of doubt in order to enable the woman to partake afterwards of sacrificial flesh.');">²³</span>

נטמא ביום מביא בלילה אין מביא ור' יוחנן אמר

AND MAY THEN PARTAKE OF SACRIFICIAL FLESH, AND SHE IS NOT BOUND TO BRING THE OTHER [OFFERINGS].

אפי' בלילה מביא

IF SHE HAD FIVE CERTAIN ISSUES, OR FIVE CERTAIN BIRTHS, SHE BRINGS ONE OFFERING AND MAY THEN PARTAKE OF SACRIFICIAL FLESH; BUT IT IS STILL HER DUTY TO BRING THE OTHER OFFERINGS.

כי קא"ר יוחנן ב' בלילה ואחת ביום אין מביא לדברי האומר מחוסר זמן

IT ONCE HAPPENED IN JERUSALEM THAT THE PRICE OF A PAIR OF DOVES<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' A pair of pigeons or a pair of doves was the prescribed offering in the instances of the MISHNAH: Rashi: two pairs, i.e. four birds, cost two golden denars, thus one golden denar (i.e. twenty-five silver denars) the pair.');">²⁴</span>

לדברי האומר פשיטא

ROSE TO A GOLDEN DENAR'SAID R'SIMEON B. GAMALIEL, BY THIS SANCTUARY, I SHALL NOT GO TO SLEEP TO-NIGHT BEFORE THEY COST BUT A [SILVER] DENAR! THEN HE ENTERED THE BETH DIN AND TAUGHT: IF A WOMAN HAD FIVE CERTAIN BIRTHS OR FIVE CERTAIN ISSUES SHE NEED BRING BUT ONE OFFERING, AND MAY THEN PARTAKE OF SACRIFICIAL FLESH, AND SHE IS NOT BOUND TO BRING THE OTHER [OFFERINGS].

ראה אחת בלילה וב' ביום איצטריכא ליה מהו דתימא

THEREUPON THE PRICE OF A PAIR OF BIRDS STOOD AT A QUARTER OF A [SILVER] DENAR EACH.

כיון דלאו בזמן חיובא קחזי ליה לא תצטרף קמ"ל:

<big><b>GEMARA: </b></big>Our Rabbis taught: If she had five certain births and five doubtful ones, or five certain issues and five doubtful ones, she brings two pairs of birds, one for the certain and one for the doubtful cases.

<big><strong>מתני׳</strong></big> האשה שיש עליה ספק ה' לידות וספק ה' זיבות מביאה קרבן אחד ואוכלת בזבחים ואין השאר עליה חובה

The one offered for the certain cases may be eaten, and it is still incumbent upon her to bring the remaining offerings; that offered for the doubtful cases is not eaten,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' It is brought only in order to enable her to partake of sacrificial flesh.');">²⁵</span>

ה' זיבות ודאות וה' לידות ודאות מביאה קרבן אחד ואוכלת בזבחים והשאר עליה חובה

and the woman is not bound to bring any more offerings.

מעשה שעמדו קינין בירושלים בדינר זהב

R'Johanan B'Nuri said: For the certain cases she shall say, The offering is for the last occurrence,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For if it was offered for one of the previous occurrences, those following would appear unatoned for, and this could lead to misunderstanding in that on future similar occasions the woman would assume that offerings were not essential.');">²⁶</span>

אמר רבן שמעון בן גמליאל

and she will be exempted; but for the doubtful cases, if there is a certain one among them,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. Rashi.');">²⁷</span>

המעון הזה

she shall say that the offering is for the one that is not in doubt, and she is exempted; if not, she says that the offering i any one of the occurrences and she is exempted.

לא אלין הלילה עד שיהיה בדינרין

R'Akiba said: Both in the instance of the certain cases and in that of the doubtful ones she shall say that the offering is for any one of the occurrences and she is exempted.

בסוף נכנס לב"ד ולמד

Said R'Nahman B'Isaac to R'Papa: I shall tell you in the name of Raba in which point these Tannaim differ: R'Johanan B'Nuri compares these instances to those of sin-offerings: Just as when one is liable to five sin-offerings, he is not atoned for before all have been offered, the same is the ruling in our case.

האשה שיש עליה ה' לידות ודאות ה' זיבות ודאות מביאה קרבן אחד ואוכלת בזבחים ואין השאר עליה חובה

R'Akiba on the other hand compares them to immersions;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' E.g., if one contracted uncleanness five times.');">²⁸</span>

ועמדו קינין ביום ההוא ברבעתים:

for if one requires five immersions, as soon as he has immersed once he is clean; the same is the ruling in our case.

<big><strong>גמ׳</strong></big> ת"ר

Said R'Papa to him: If it was to be assumed that R'Johanan B'Nuri compared our instances to those of sin-offerings, why does he maintain that for doubtful cases she shall say the offering is for any one of them, and she is exempted?

ה' לידות ודאי ה' זיבות ספק או ה' לידות ודאי וה' לידות ספק מביאה ב' קינין אחת על הודאי ואחת על הספק

Suppose one was liable

של ודאי נאכלת והשאר עליה חובה

של ספק אין נאכלת ואין השאר עליה חובה

ר' יוחנן בן נורי אומר

על ודאי תאמר על האחרונה ותפטר

של ספק אם יש ודאי ביניהן תאמר

על הודאי ותפטר ואם לאו תאמר

על אחד מהן ותפטר

ר"ע אומר

בין על הודאי בין על הספק תאמר

על אחת מהן ותפטר

א"ל רב נחמן בר יצחק לרב פפא

אימא לך משמיה דרבא הני תנאי במאי פליגי דר' יוחנן בן נורי מדמי להון לחטאת דמאן דחייב ה' חטאות עד דמייתי כולהון וסוף מכפר ליה ה"נ ל"ש

ור"ע מדמי להון לטבילין דמאן דמחייב ה' טבילות כיון דטביל חדא זימנא איטהר ה"נ ל"ש

א"ל רב פפא

אי ס"ד ר' יוחנן בן נורי לחטאת מדמי להן אמאי של ספק תאמר

על אחת מהן ותפטר

אילו מאן דמחייב