Nedarim 104

<big><strong>גמ׳</strong></big> ורמינהו מן העדשים אסור באשישים ור' יוסי מתיר

<b><i>GEMARA</i></b>. But the following contradicts this. [If one vows abstinence] from lentils, lentil cakes are forbidden him; R. Jose permits them!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Infra 53b. Thus R. Jose permits what is made from the forbidden substance, whilst in the Mishnah he declares curd forbidden under the term milk. ');">¹</span>

לא קשיא מר כי אתריה ומר כי אתריה באתרא דרבנן קרו לחלבא חלבא ולקומא קומא באתריה דרבי יוסי לקומא נמי קרו ליה קומא דחלבא

— There is no difficulty: each Master [rules] according to [the usage] of his locality. In that of the Rabbis, milk is called milk, and curd, curd; but in that of R. Jose, curd too is called curd of milk.

תניא הנודר מן החלב מותר בקום מן הקום מותר בחלב מן החלב מותר בגבינה מן הגבינה מותר בחלב מן הרוטב מותר בקיפה מן הקיפה מותר ברוטב אם אמר בשר זה עלי אסור בו וברוטבו ובקיפו

It was taught: He who vows [abstinence] from milk, is permitted curd; from curd, is permitted milk; from milk, is permitted cheese; from cheese, is permitted milk; from broth, is permitted meat sediment; from meat sediment, is permitted broth. If he says, 'This meat be forbidden me,' the meat itself, its broth and its sediment, are forbidden him. If he vows [to abstain] from wine, he may partake of food which contains the taste of wine; but if he says, 'Konam that I taste not this wine,' and it falls into food, if the taste of wine is [perceptible] therein, it is forbidden.

הנודר מן היין מותר בתבשיל שיש בו טעם יין אמר קונם יין זה שאיני טועם ונפל לתוך התבשיל אם יש בו טעם יין הרי זה אסור:

<b><i>MISHNAH</i></b>. HE WHO VOWS [ABSTINENCE] FROM GRAPES IS PERMITTED WINE: FROM OLIVES, IS PERMITTED OIL. IF HE SAYS, KONAM. THAT I TASTE NOT THESE OLIVES AND GRAPES', BOTH THEY AND THEIR JUICE<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'what comes from them'. ');">²</span>

<big><strong>מתני׳</strong></big> הנודר מן הענבים מותר ביין מן הזיתים מותר בשמן אמר קונם זיתים וענבים אלו שאיני טועם אסור בהן וביוצא מהן:

ARE FORBIDDEN.

<big><strong>גמ׳</strong></big> בעי רמי בר חמא אלו דוקא או שאיני טועם דוקא

<b><i>GEMARA</i></b>. Ram b. Hama propounded: Is 'these' essential, or 'that I taste not' essential?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since an ordinary vow does not interdict the juice (If grapes and olives, whilst in the second clause thus is forbidden, the question arises, on account of which particular phrase are they prohibited? Is it because he vowed 'these grapes', or because he added 'that I taste not', superfluous in itself, being implied in konam, and therefore perhaps extending the vow to oil and wine? ');">³</span>

אי ס"ד אלו דוקא שאיני טועם למ"ל הא קמ"ל דאע"ג דאמר שאיני טועם אי דאמר אלו מיתסר ואי לא לא

(But, if you can think that 'these' is essential, why add 'that I taste not'? — He [the Tanna] may teach this [by the addition]: even if he Says. 'that I taste not.' yet only if he declares, 'these' is he prohibited, but not otherwise.) — Raba said. Come and hear: [If one says Konam be these fruits to me,'<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Infra 57a. ');">⁴</span>

אמר רבא ת"ש קונם פירות האלו עלי קונם הן לפי אסור בחילופיהן ובגידוליהן הא ביוצא מהן מותר

'Be they konam to my mouth,' he is forbidden [to benefit] from what is exchanged for them or what grows of their seeds. This implies that he may benefit from their juice!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Though he said 'these'. This proves that the essential clause in the Mishnah is 'that I taste not'. ');">⁵</span>

ה"ה דאפי' ביוצא מהן אסור והא עדיפא ליה לאשמועינן דחילופיהן כגידוליהן דמי

— In truth, even their juice is forbidden; but he [the Tanna] prefers to teach that what is exchanged for them is the same as what grows from their seeds.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Though the firmer is an entirely different thing: how much more than that which actually issues therefrom! ');">⁶</span>

ת"ש שאיני אוכל ושאיני טועם מותר בחילופיהן ובגידוליהן הא היוצא מהן אסור איידי דלא נסיב ברישא יוצא מהן לא נסיב נמי בסיפא יוצא מהן

Come and hear: 'That I eat not or taste not of them,' he is permitted [to benefit] from what is exchanged for them or what grows of their seeds.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' This continues the quotation. ');">⁷</span>

ת"ש אמר ר' יהודה מעשה ואסר רבי טרפון עלי ביצים שנתבשלו עמו אמרו לו אימתי בזמן שאמר בשר זה עלי שהנודר מן הדבר ונתערב באחר ויש בו בנותן טעם הרי זה אסור

This implies that their juice is forbidden!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For, according to the last answer, this is more likely to be forbidden than the others. Hence, were this permitted, it would be explicitly stated. This too proves that the essential clause is 'that I taste not'. ');">⁸</span>

באלו לא קא מיבעיא לן דדוקא הוא כי מיבעיא לן בשאיני טועם דוקא או לאו דוקא

— Because the first clause does not mention their juice, the second clause omits it too.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For the sake of uniformity. But actually it may be permitted. ');">⁹</span>

ת"ש דג דגים שאיני טועם אסור בהן בין גדולים בין קטנים בין חיים בין מבושלים ומותר בטרית טרופה ובציר

Come and hear: R. Judah said: It once happened that [in such a case] R. Tarfon forbade us [even] eggs boiled therewith. They replied, that is so. By only if he vows, 'This meat be forbidden me.' For if he vows [to abstain] from something, and it is mixed up with another, if it [the forbidden food] is sufficient to impart its taste [to the other], it is forbidden!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' This definitely proves that 'this' is essential. ');">¹⁰</span>

אמר רבא וכבר יצא מהן:

— There is no question about 'these': that is certainly essential.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., it is certain that 'these' alone extends the vow as indicated. ');">¹¹</span> The problem is with respect to 'that I taste not': is that essential or not?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Is that phrase alone sufficient to extend its scope? ');">¹²</span> — Come and hear: ['Konam that I taste not fish or fishes'], he is forbidden [to eat] them, both large and small, salted and unsalted, raw and cooked. Yet he may eat hashed terith and brine!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Brine is the juice that issues from the fish, yet it is permitted, though he said, 'that I taste not'. This proves that that alone is insufficient. ');">¹³</span> — Raba said: Providing it [the brine] had already issued from them [before the vow].<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' But the brine which issues thereafter may be forbidden: hence the problem remains. ');">¹⁴</span>