Taanit 8

Chapter 8

א רבי יהושע היא דאמר משעת הנחתו אמר רבא אפילו תימא רבי אליעזר שאלה לחוד והזכרה לחוד:
1 Shall we say it is R'Joshua, who said, From the time when the Lulab is dis- vow annulled by appealing to Phinehas who was in Gilead for a remission of the vow; cf.
ב רבי יהודה אומר העובר לפני התיבה כו':
2 Gen. Rab.
ג ורמינהו עד מתי שואלין את הגשמים ר' יהודה אומר עד שיעבור הפסח ר' מאיר אומר עד שיעבור ניסן
3 LX,.] carded? - Raba replied: You can even say that it is R'Eliezer; 'praying', however, is one thing and 'making mention' is another, R'JUDAH SAYS: THE LAST TO STEP BEFORE THE ARK etc. The following was cited in contradiction to this: Until when do we [continue] to pray for rain? R'Judah says: Until Passover is over; R'Meir says, Until the end of Nisan! - R'Hisda replied: The two statements [of R'Judah] are not contradictory; the one refers to 'praying' and the other to 'making mention'; 'praying'<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. supra p. 1, n. 4.');"><sup>1</sup></span>
ד אמר רב חסדא לא קשיא כאן לשאול כאן להזכיר מישאל שאיל ואזיל להזכיר ביו"ט הראשון פסיק
4 one continues [until] the end of Passover] but 'making mention' is discontinued on the first day [of Passover].' Ulla said: This [solution of the contradiction] by R'Hisda is as difficult as vinegar to the teeth, and as smoke for the eyes.
ה אמר עולא הא דרב חסדא קשיא (משלי י, כו) כחומץ לשינים וכעשן לעינים ומה במקום שאינו שואל מזכיר במקום ששואל אינו דין שיהא מזכיר
5 If one makes mention of rain at such times when it is not permissible to pray for<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., in the musaf of the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles, the 'prayer' for rain being inserted only in the weekday Tefillah');"><sup>2</sup></span> [it], how much more so should one make mention of rain when it is permissible to pray for it? - It must be, says 'Ulla, that [there is a dispute] between two Tannaim as to the opinion of R'Judah.
ו אלא אמר עולא תרי תנאי אליבא דר' יהודה
6 R'Joseph said: What is the meaning of, 'Until Passover is over'? Until the first reader on the first day of Passover is over [with his prayers].<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., the Shaharith Tefillah. (v. Glos.) . [MS.M. 'until the time of the first... is over'].');"><sup>3</sup></span>
ז רב יוסף אמר מאי עד שיעבור הפסח עד שיעבור שליח צבור ראשון היורד ביו"ט ראשון של פסח
7 Said Abaye to him: Is there then a place in the Festival [Tefillah] for inserting the prayer for rain? He replied to him: Yes, the Meturgeman<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The translator or interpreter. The function of this official in Talmudic times was to interpret to the audience in the Synagogue in a popular manner and to enlarge upon the theme of the rabbi lecturing. Rashi, feeling that in our passage no such official could be referred to, explains that here the lecturing rabbi and interpreter are one and the same person, he who lectures on the first day of Passover, and that he included in his address a prayer for rain. V. however, the commentary of R. Hananel ad loc.');"><sup>4</sup></span>
ח א"ל אביי שאלה ביו"ט מי איכא
8 'prays' - Does then the Meturgeman ever pray for something of which the community has no need? Therefore, the better solution is that of 'Ulla.
ט א"ל אין שואל מתורגמן וכי מתורגמן שואל דבר שאינו צריך לצבור אלא מחוורתא כדעולא
9 Rabbah said: What is the meaning of, 'Until Passover is over'? Until the time limit for the slaughtering of the Paschal offering has passed;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., noon of the fourteenth of Nisan.');"><sup>5</sup></span>
י רבה אמר מאי עד שיעבור הפסח עד שיעבור זמן שחיטת הפסח וכתחילתו כן סופו מה תחילתו מזכיר אע"פ שאינו שואל אף סופו מזכיר אע"פ שאינו שואל
10 and as at its beginning<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., of the rainy season.');"><sup>6</sup></span> so at its end; just as at its beginning one makes mention [of rain] although one has not yet [begun] to pray,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. supra p. 1, n. 4.');"><sup>7</sup></span>
יא א"ל אביי בשלמא תחילתו מזכיר הזכרה נמי ריצוי שאלה היא אלא סופו מאי ריצוי שאלה איכא אלא מחוורתא כדעולא
11 so too at its end he makes mention although he no longer has to pray.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Having ceased to pray on the preceding day in the afternoon service, v. Rashi.');"><sup>8</sup></span> Abaye replied: I can understand that one should make mention at the beginning, seeing that making mention is a form of propitiation [prefatory to prayer] but as for the end, what place is there for such propitiation?
יב א"ר אסי א"ר יוחנן הלכה כר' יהודה א"ל ר' זירא לר' אסי ומי אמר רבי יוחנן הכי והתנן בשלשה במרחשוון שואלין את הגשמים רבן גמליאל אומר בשבעה בו וא"ר אלעזר הלכה כרבן גמליאל
12 Therefore, the better solution is that of 'Ulla. R'Assi said in the name of R'Johanan, The halachah is according to R'Judah.
יג א"ל גברא אגברא קא רמית איבעית אימא לא קשיא כאן לשאול כאן להזכיר
13 Thereupon R'Zera asked R'Assi: Could then R'Johanan [really] have said so? Have we not learnt: We [begin] to pray for rain on the third of Marcheshvan; Rabban Gamaliel said: On the seventh of the same month - And with reference to this R'Eleazar declared: The halachah is according to Rabban Gamaliel.
יד והאמר ר' יוחנן במקום ששואל מזכיר ההוא להפסקה איתמר והאמר ר' יוחנן התחיל להזכיר מתחיל לשאול פסק מלשאול פוסק מלהזכיר
14 He [R'Assi] replied to him: You set one authority against another!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' R. Eleazar against R. Johanan.');"><sup>9</sup></span> Moreover, if you like I will say there is no contradiction; the one [case] speaks of 'praying' and the other of 'making mention'.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Which begins on the seventh whereas in regard to mentioning R. Johanan will rule in accordance with R. Judah.');"><sup>10</sup></span>
טו אלא לא קשיא הא לן הא להו מאי שנא לדידן דאית לן פירי בדברא לדידהו נמי אית להו עולי רגלים
15 But did not R'Johanan say: Whenever one prays one should also make mention? That [rule] applies only to the discontinuation [of 'praying'].<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' At the end of the rainy season we stop at the same time both the making of mention and the praying for rain; but at the beginning of the rainy season we commence with the making mention of rain and at a later date we also add the formal prayer for rain.');"><sup>11</sup></span>
טז כי קא"ר יוחנן בזמן שאין בית המקדש קיים השתא דאתית להכי הא והא לדידהו ולא קשיא כאן בזמן שבית המקדש קיים כאן בזמן שאין בית המקדש קיים
16 But did not R'Johanan say: When one begins to make mention one should also [begin] to pray; when one discontinues to pray one should also cease to make mention? - There is really no contradiction; one statement refers to us [Babylonians] and the other to them [Palestinians],<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' [In Babylonia the harvest was gathered later than in Palestine and consequently the prayer for rain would also begin later].');"><sup>12</sup></span> Why should we be different? - Is it because we have produce in the field?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And therefore rain was not opportune as long as the harvest had not been gathered in.');"><sup>13</sup></span>
יז ואנן דאית לן תרי יומי היכי עבדינן אמר רב מתחיל במוספין ופוסק במנחה ערבית ושחרית וחוזר במוספין
17 They also have Pilgrims?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And therefore mention of rain should be put off as late as possible to enable the Pilgrims to reach home in comfort before the rains set in. MISHNAH: UNTIL WHEN DO WE PRAY FOR RAIN? R. JUDAH SAYS: UNTIL THE PASSOVER IS OVER. R. MEIR SAYS: UNTIL');"><sup>14</sup></span> -R'Johanan speaks [of con - ditions] after Temple times.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' When pilgrimages to Jerusalem, no longer took place.');"><sup>15</sup></span>
יח אמר להו שמואל פוקו ואמרו ליה לאבא אחר שעשיתו קודש תעשהו חול אלא אמר שמואל מתחיל במוספין ובמנחה ופוסק ערבית ושחרית וחוזר ומתחיל במוספין
18 Now that you have arrived at this conclusion [I can say], Both teachings apply equally to them [Palestinians] and there is no contradiction; the one speaks [of conditions] in Temple times and the other [of conditions] after Temple times. But as for us who observe two days [of the festival],<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' [Because of doubt, In this case whether it is the eighth or seventh day of the Festival of Tabernacles.]');"><sup>16</sup></span> what shall our practice be? - Rab says: He begins [to make men-tion] in the Additional Service of the Eighth Day of the Feast, he discontinues in the Afternoon Service and in the Evening Service and in the Morning Service but resumes in the Additional Service of the second day. Samuel said to them [to the scholars]: Go and say to Abba:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., Rab. His proper name was Abba Arika.');"><sup>17</sup></span> After you have declared the day holy<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' By making mention of rain indicating thereby that it is the eighth day of the Festival.');"><sup>18</sup></span> can you declare it again a weekday?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' [By discontinuing it at the afternoon service and then implying that it is still the seventh day which belongs to the half holiday.]');"><sup>19</sup></span> - Therefore Samuel said: He begins [to make mention] in the Additional Service and in the Afternoon Service and discontinues in the Evening Service and in the Morning Service [of the following day], and resumes it in the Additional Service
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