Chullin 247

עד שיהא בארץ

so that it<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Sc. the plastering; i.e., the plastering must be entirely demolished so that it in no wise supports the parts of the oven (Rashi) ; or, 'it' sc. each part of the oven (Maim) ; or, 'it' sc. the crack must run from the top to the bottom of the oven, i.e., a perpendicular crack (R. Samson of Sens) .');">¹</span>

רבי מאיר אומר

lies on the ground.

אינו צריך לא לגרור את הטפילה ולא עד שיהא בארץ אלא ממעטו מבפנים מארבע טפחים

R'Meir says.

כי ממעט לה מד' מיהא טהור אמאי

One need not scrape off the plastering nor [see to it] that it lies the ground, but one need only cut it down to less than four handbreadths high inside.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Kel. V, 7.');">²</span>

לימא הא חלים וקאי

It follows that if one did cut it down to less than four handbreadths high it would be clean; but why?

אמר ליה רבא

Surely we should say that it stands firm!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' By reason of the plastering around it. This then conflicts with Resh Lakish who maintains that if only a portion of an article remains firm, although the rest of it is broken or torn, it is still considered an article.');">³</span>

ואימא מדרבנן גורר את הטפילה עד שיהא בארץ

- Thereupon Raba said to him, Why not rather quote the view of the Rabbis,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Sc. the first Tanna of this MISHNAH:');">⁴</span>

אלא אמר רבא הכי קאמר

'One should scrape off the plastering so that it lies on the ground' [in support]?

תנור שנטמא כיצד מטהרין אותו

Rather, said Raba, This is the interpretation: If an oven had become unclean how can one make it clean again?

דברי הכל חולקו לשלשה וגורר את הטפילה עד שיהא בארץ

It is the unanimous opinion that one should divide it into three parts and scrape off the plastering so that it lies on the ground.

והרוצה שלא יבא תנורו לידי טומאה כיצד הוא עושה חולקו לשלשה וגורר את הטפילה עד שיהא בארץ

And if one desires that the oven should not be susceptible to uncleanness what should one do?

רבי מאיר אומר

One should divide it into three parts and should scrape off the plastering so that it lies on the ground.

אינו צריך לא לגרור את הטפילה ולא עד שיהא בארץ אלא ממעטו מבפנים מארבע טפחים

R'Meir says.

אמר מר

One need not scrape off the plastering nor [see to it] that it lies on the ground, but one need only cut it down to less than four handbreadths high inside.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The dispute therefore between R. Meir and the Rabbis is only with regard to an oven which was not unclean, concerning the measures necessary in order to prevent it from ever becoming unclean.');">⁵</span>

חולקו לשלשה ורמינהו

The Master said: 'One should divide it into three parts'.

תנור תחלתו ארבעה ושיריו ארבעה דברי רבי מאיר

But there is a contradiction to this, for we have learnt: An oven must, in its first state, be [at least] four handbreadths high,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In order to be susceptible to uncleanness.');">⁶</span>

וחכמים אומרים

and any fragment thereof<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., of a large oven which was broken in order to be made clean again; cf. Lev. XI, 35.');">⁷</span>

במה דברים אמורים בגדול אבל בקטן תחלתו כל שהוא

[is still unclean if it is] four handbreadths high: so R'Meir.

משתגמר מלאכתו שיריו ברובו

But the Sages say.

וכמה כל שהוא

This<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Sc. the ruling of R. Meir.');">⁸</span>

אמרי דבי רבי ינאי

applies only to a large oven,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., an oven used for baking or cooking.');">⁹</span>

טפח שכן עושים תנורים בנות טפח

but as regards a small oven<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Which is used as a plaything.');">¹⁰</span>

טעמא דאיכא שיריו ד' הא ליכא שיריו ד' טהור

no matter what its height was in its first state, provided its manufacture was complete.

אמרי

[it is susceptible to uncleanness,] and any fragment thereof [is still unclean if it amounts to] the greater portion of [the oven].<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Kel. V, 1.');">¹¹</span>

התם דצלקיה מצלק הכא דעבדיה גיסטרא

How much is meant by 'no matter what its height'?

אמר מר

R'Jannai said, [At least] one handbreadth high, for it is usual to make an oven one handbreadth high [as a plaything].

שיריו ברובו רובו דטפח למאי הוי

Now only if there is a fragment of four handbreadths [is it still unclean], but if there is no fragment of four handbreadths it is clean!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' This clearly contradicts the aforementioned Mishnah which states that an oven to be made clean again must be divided into three parts, but it would not be sufficient to divide it into two, even though each part would be less than four handbreadths.');">¹²</span>

אמר אביי

- I can answer: There he split it across the width,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And if none of the fragments are of four handbreadths, the oven is absolutely useless and therefore clean.');">¹³</span>

שירי גדול ברובו

but here he split it lengthwise.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And if there remains standing the greater part of the oven, even though such part is less than four handbreadths, it remains unclean. It must therefore be divided into three parts so that no part is equal to the greater part of the oven.');">¹⁴</span>

והאמרי רבנן ארבעה

The Master said: 'And any fragment thereof [is still unclean if it amounts to] the greater portion of [the oven]'.

לא קשיא הא בתנורא בר תשעה הא בתנורא בר שבעה

But of what use can the greater portion of a handbreadth be? - Abaye said: It means, any fragment of a large oven [is still unclean if it amounts to] the greater portion of it.

ל"א אמרי לה אמר רב הונא משום רבי ישמעאל ברבי יוסי

But [with regard to a large oven] Sages say [in agreement with R'Meir that it is still unclean if the fragment is] four handbreadths? - This is no difficulty: one ruling refers to an oven nine handbreadths high, the other to an oven seven handbreadths high.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The Sages adopt rules of leniency: where the greater portion of the oven is more than four handbreadths then they regard fragments up to the size of the greater portion as clean; and where the greater portion is less than four handbreadths then they regard fragments up to four handbreadths as clean.');">¹⁵</span>

ואפילו שייר בה כדי מעפורת

Another version reports the passage as follows: R'Huna said in the name of R'Ishmael son of R'Jose.

אמר ריש לקיש

Even if he left a portion sufficient for an apron [the garment is rendered clean].

לא שנו אלא טלית אבל עור חשיב

Thereupon Resh Lakish said: This [teaching] applies only to a garment, but in the case of leather [what is left] is of value.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Even though it is only the size of an apron. Hence it is not rendered clean by 'the tearing, for it cannot be said to be destroyed for al use.');">¹⁶</span>

ורבי יוחנן אמר

But R'Johanan said: Even in the case of leather [what is left] is of no value.

אפילו עור נמי לא חשיב

R'Johanan raised the following objection again Resh Lakish: If<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. supra p. 690. cz caunk dzcaunk');">¹⁷</span>

איתיביה רבי יוחנן לריש לקיש

a hide had contracted midras uncleanness and a man had the intention to use it for straps and sandals, so soon as he puts the knife into it it becomes clean: so R'Judah.

עור טמא מדרס חישב עליו לרצועה וסנדלין כיון שנתן בו איזמל טהור דברי רבי יהודה

But the Sages say.

וחכמים אומרים

Not until he has reduced its size to less than five handbreadths.

עד שימעיטנו מחמשה טפחים

It follows, however, that if he had actually reduced its size [to less than five handbreadths] it would be clean; but why?

כי ממעט מיהא טהור אמאי

Surely we should say [what is left] is of value! - We must suppose here that he intended [the hide] to serve as a seat for one suffering with an issue.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Reading . According to MS.M. and 'Aruch the reading is , a peculiar word, whose etymology as well as meaning is extremely doubtful. 'A leather seat of a folding chair' (Jast) . The argument is, since the hide was intended to be used for a particular purpose so soon as it is diminished and so rendered unfit for that purpose it is deemed to be of no value.');">¹⁸</span>

לימא חשיב

<big><b>MISHNAH: </b></big>IF THERE WAS AN OLIVE'S BULK OF [UNCLEAN] FLESH ADHERING TO THE HIDE<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' In one place.');">¹⁹</span>

הכא במאי עסקינן דקא בעי ליה למושב זב:

AND A MAN TOUCHED A SHRED HANGING FROM IT,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., from the olive's bulk of flesh (Rashi) . According to Maim. the Mishnah refers to a fibre that proceeds from the hide.');">²⁰</span>

<big><strong>מתני׳</strong></big> עור שיש עליו כזית בשר הנוגע בציב היוצא ממנו ובשערה שכנגדו טמא

OR A HAIR THAT WAS OPPOSITE TO IT,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., on the outside of the hide, directly over the morsel of flesh.');">²¹</span>

היו עליו כשני חצאי זיתים מטמא במשא ולא במגע דברי רבי ישמעאל

HE BECOMES UNCLEAN.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For the shred is like the flesh itself, and the hair is a protection to the flesh.');">²²</span>

רבי עקיבא אומר

IF THERE WERE TWO PIECES OF FLESH EACH A HALF-OLIVES BULK UPON IT, THEY CONVEY UNCLEANNESS BY CARRYING<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For when a person carries the hide he carries at the same time an olive's bulk of the carcass.');">²³</span>

לא במגע ולא במשא

BUT NOT BY CONTACT:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Since the pieces are apart they cannot be touched simultaneously but only one after the other, and each time only a half-olive's bulk is touched. The two separate 'contacts' cannot be reckoned together to make up a 'contact' of an olive's bulk.');">²⁴</span>

ומודה רבי עקיבא בשני חצאי זיתים שתחבן בקיסם והסיטן שהוא טמא ומפני מה רבי עקיבא מטהר בעור מפני שהעור מבטלן:

SO R'ISHMAEL.

<big><strong>גמ׳</strong></big> אמר עולא אמר רבי יוחנן

R'AKIBA SAYS, NEITHER BY CONTACT NOR BY CARRYING.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For R. Akiba is of the opinion (infra) that flesh less than an olive's bulk adhering to hide is deemed as part of the hide itself. yxhv');">²⁵</span>

לא שנו אלא פלטתו חיה אבל פלטתו סכין בטיל

R'AKIBA, HOWEVER, AGREES THAT IF THERE WERE TWO PIECES OF FLESH, EACH A HALF-OLIVE'S BULK, STUCK ON A CHIP AND A MAN SWAYED<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., moved them without actually touching them. Heb. 'swaying'. 'shaking'.');">²⁶</span>

אמר ליה רב נחמן לעולא

THEM, HE BECOMES UNCLEAN.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. Gemara for the reason of R. Akiba s view.');">²⁷</span>

אמר רבי יוחנן אפילו כתרטא

WHEREFORE THEN DOES R'AKIBA DECLARE HIM CLEAN IN THE [CASE WHERE THEY ADHERE TO THE] HIDE?

אמר ליה

BECAUSE THE HIDE RENDERS THEM NEGLIGIBLE.

אין

<big><b>GEMARA: </b></big>'Ulla said in the name of R'Johanan.

ואפילו כנפיא

This rule<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That an olive's bulk of flesh adhering to the hide is not rendered negligible.');">²⁸</span>

א"ל

applies only to the case where a wild beast tore it away,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' I.e., a wild beast bit into the animal whilst alive and later when the animal was being flayed pieces of flesh were found to have been torn away and left hanging to the hide.');">²⁹</span>

אין

but where it was cut away by the knife [in flaying] it certainly is deemed negligible.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Even though there is a whole olive's bulk of flesh.');">³⁰</span>

א"ל

R'Nahman enquired of 'Ulla, 'Did R'Johanan also say so even if it was as large as a tirta?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' A quarter of a kab; or, the pan of scales (Rashi) . The question is, what if the knife, whilst flaying, cut away a large slice of flesh as much as a tirta? Can this quantity, too, be deemed negligible or not?');">³¹</span>

האלהים

- He replied.'

אם אמר לי רבי יוחנן מפומיה לא צייתנא ליה

Yes'.'

כי סליק רב אושעיא אשכחיה ליה לרבי אמי אמרה לשמעתיה קמיה

And even as large as a sieve? ' - He replied.'

הכי אמר עולא והכי אהדר ליה רב נחמן

Yes'.'

א"ל

By God!' said the other; 'even if R'Johanan himsel had told it me by his own mouth I should not have accepted it!'

ומשום דרב נחמן חתניה דבי נשיאה הוא מזלזל בשמעתיה דר' יוחנן

When R'Oshaia went up [to Palestine] he met R'Ammi and reported to him the discussion, 'So said 'Ulla and so answered R'Nahman'.

זמנין אשכחיה דיתיב וקאמר לה אסיפא

Said [R'Ammi] to him, 'And even if R'Nahman is the son-in-law of the Exilarch shall he make light of the teaching of R'Johanan? ' On another occasion he [R'Oshaia] found him [R'Ammi] sitting and expounding it<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Sc. the above statement of R. Johanan.');">³²</span>

היו עליו שני חצאי זיתים מטמאים במשא ולא במגע דברי ר' ישמעאל

with reference to the second clause [of our Mishnah] thus: 'IF THERE WERE TWO PIECES OF FLESH EACH A HALF-OLIVE'S BULK UPON IT.

ר"ע אומר

THEY CONVEY UNCLEANNESS BY CARRYING BUT NOT BY CONTACT: SO R'ISHMAEL.

לא במגע ולא במשא

R'AKIBA SAYS, NEITHER BY CONTACT NOR BY CARRYING.

א"ר יוחנן

Thereupon R'Johanan had said: This rule<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' That two pieces of flesh each a half-olive's bulk are not rendered negligible according to R. Ishmael. h,ujb');">³³</span>

לא שנו אלא פלטתו חיה אבל פלטתו סכין בטיל

applies only to the case where a wild beast tore them away, but where they were cut away by the knife [in flaying] they are deemed negligible'.

א"ל

Then said [R'Oshaia].'

מר אסיפא מתני לה

Does the Master refer it to the second clause? ' - He replied.'

א"ל

Yes; did 'Ulla tell it you with reference to the first clause? ' Said the other, 'He did'.'

אין ואלא עולא ארישא אמרה ניהליכו

By God!' said R'Ammi, 'even i Joshua the son of Nun had told it me by his own mouth I should not have accepted it!' When Rabin came down with all the company<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' ; the scholars who used to travel to and fro between Palestine and Babylon reporting teachings of the one country to the other.');">³⁴</span>

א"ל

that used to come down [from Palestine to Babylon] they reported that it referred to the first clause.

אין

But is there not then a difficulty?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For if it is held that a whole olive's bulk of flesh is rendered negligible when cut away by the knife then the same should be the case where flesh the size of a tirta or a sieve was cut away. But this is contrary to reason!');">³⁵</span>

א"ל

- As R'Papa suggested [elsewhere]<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' V. infra.');">³⁶</span>

האלהים

אי אמר לי יהושע בן נון משמיה לא צייתנא ליה

כי אתא רבין וכל נחותי אמרוה ארישא

ואלא קשיא

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