Kiddushin 63

משל מי רב יהודה אמר משל בן רב נתן בר אושעיא אמר משל אב אורו ליה רבנן לרב ירמיה ואמרי לה לבריה דרב ירמיה כמ"ד משל אב

At whose expense?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'from whose' - must he feed him, etc.');">¹</span> Rab Judah said: The son's.

מיתיבי נאמר (שמות כ, יא) כבד את אביך ואת אמך ונאמר (משלי ג, ט) כבד את ה' מהונך מה להלן בחסרון כיס אף כאן בחסרון כיס ואי אמרת משל אב מאי נפקא ליה מיניה לביטול מלאכה

R'Nahman B'Oshaia said: The father's. The Rabbis gave a ruling to R'Jeremiah - others state, to R'Jeremiah's son - in accordance with the view that it must be at the father's expense.

ת"ש ב' אחים שני שותפין האב ובנו הרב ותלמידו פודין זה לזה מעשר שני ומאכילין זה לזה מעשר עני

An objection is raised: It is said: Honour thy father and thy mother;<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Ex. XX, 12.');">²</span> and it is also said: Honour the Lord with thy substance:<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Prov. III, 9.');">³</span>

ואי אמרת משל בן נמצא זה פורע חובו משל עניים לא צריכא להעדפה

just as the latter means at personal cost,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'defect in the purse'.');">⁴</span> so the former too.

אי הכי היינו דקתני עלה אמר רבי יהודה תבא מאירה למי שמאכיל את אביו מעשר עני ואי להעדפה מאי נפקא מינה אפילו הכי זילא ביה מילתא

But if you say: At the father's [expense], how does it affect him?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' His pocket - i.e., what personal loss is there?');">⁵</span> - Through loss of time.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'work'.');">⁶</span>

ת"ש שאלו את ר"א עד היכן כיבוד אב ואם אמר להם כדי שיטול ארנקי ויזרקנו לים בפניו ואינו מכלימו ואי אמרת משל אב מאי נפקא לי' מיניה בראוי ליורשו

Come and hear: Two brothers, two partners, a father and son, a master and disciple, may redeem second tithe for each other,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' With their own money, and need not add a fifth, as is the case when one redeems his own second tithe (v. Lev. XXVII, 31) . Now, though these are closely attached, they are nevertheless separate persons, and so e.g., when the master redeems for his disciple, he is not regarded as redeeming his own.');">⁷</span> and may feed each other with the poor tithe.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' E.g., if the father is poor, the son may give him poor tithe.');">⁸</span>

וכי הא דרבה בר רב הונא דרב הונא קרע שיראי באנפי רבה בריה אמר איזול איחזי אי רתח אי לא רתח ודלמא רתח וקעבר (ויקרא יט, יד) אלפני עור לא תתן מכשול דמחיל ליה ליקריה

But if you say, at the son's expense, he is thus found to fulfil his obligations with what belongs to the poor? - This refers only to an extra quantity.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' The son must furnish him with an average quantity of food, if his father needs more, he may give him poor tithe.');">⁹</span> If so, could it be taught thereon, R'Judah said: A curse may alight upon him who feeds his father with poor tithe! But if the reference is to an extra quantity, what does it matter?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Surely there is no objection to it!');">¹⁰</span>

והא קעבר משום (דברים כ, יט) בל תשחית דעבד ליה בפומבייני ודילמא משום הכי לא רתח דעבד ליה בשעת ריתחיה

- Even so, the matter is humiliating [to the father]. Come and hear: R'Eliezer was asked: How far does the honour of parents [extend]? - Said he: That he should take a purse, throw it in his presence into the sea, and not shame him.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Supra 31a. There a different answer is quoted; v. 31b, in the story of R. Tarfon.');">¹¹</span>

מתני ליה רב יחזקאל לרמי בריה הנשרפים בנסקלים רבי שמעון אומר ידונו בסקילה שהשריפה חמורה

But if you say, at the father' expense,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' So that the purse referred to is his father's.');">¹²</span> what does it matter to him? - It refers to a potential heir.

אמר ליה רב יהודה בריה אבא לא תיתנייא הכי מאי איריא שריפה חמורה תיפוק לי דרובא נסקלים נינהו אלא הכי איתנייא הנסקלים בנשרפים

As in the case of Rabbah son of R'Huna: R'Huna tore up silk in the presence of his son Rabbah, saying: 'I will go and see whether he flies into a temper or not. But perhaps he would get angry,<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' And in his anger affront his father (Rashi) .');">¹³</span>

א"ל אי הכי אימא סיפא וחכמים אומרים ידונו בשריפה שהסקילה חמורה מאי איריא דסקילה חמורה תיפוק לי דרובא נשרפים נינהו

and then he [R'Huna] would violate, Thou shalt not put a stumbling-block before the blind?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lev. XIX, 14. By causing him to fail in the honour due to him, R. Huna would violate this injunction, which is interpreted as meaning that one must not lead another into sin.');">¹⁴</span> - He renounced his honour for him.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' So that even if his son affronted him, he would not transgress.');">¹⁵</span>

א"ל התם רבנן הוא דקאמרו ליה לר"ש דקאמרת שריפה חמורה לא סקילה חמורה

But he [R'Huna] violated, Thou shalt not destroy [the trees thereof.]?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Deut. XX, 19; this is a general prohibition against causing unnecessary damage.');">¹⁶</span> - He did it in the seam.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' As it could be easily resewn, there was no real damage.');">¹⁷</span>

א"ל שמואל לרב יהודה שיננא לא תימא ליה לאבוך הכי דתניא הרי שהיה אביו עובר על דברי תורה אל יאמר לו אבא עברת על דברי תורה אלא אומר לו אבא כך כתוב בתורה כך כתוב בתורה צעורי קא מצער ליה אלא אומר לו אבא מקרא כתוב בתורה כך

Then perhaps that was why he displayed no temper? - He did it when he was [already] in a temper.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' When he could not have noticed this, and yet he did not affront his father.');">¹⁸</span> R'Ezekiel taught his son Rami: If criminals condemned to be burnt [become mixed up] with others sentenced to be stoned, R'Simeon said: They are executed<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'judged'.');">¹⁹</span>

אלעזר בן מתיא אומר אבא אומר השקיני מים ומצוה לעשות מניח אני כבוד אבא ועושה את המצוה שאני ואבא חייבים במצוה איסי בן יהודה אומר אם אפשר למצוה ליעשות ע"י אחרים תיעשה על ידי אחרים וילך הוא בכבוד אביו אמר רב מתנה הלכה כאיסי בן יהודה

by stoning, because burning is severer. Thereupon Rab Judah his son said to him: Father, teach it not thus.

א"ר יצחק בר שילא א"ר מתנה אמר רב חסדא האב שמחל על כבודו כבודו מחול הרב שמחל על כבודו אין כבודו מחול

For, why state the reason because burning is severer? This follows from the fact that the majority are for stoning.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For, 'if criminals condemned to be burnt become mixed up with others sentenced to be stoned,' implies that the latter are in the majority, as the smaller number is lost (i.e., mixed up) in the larger.');">²⁰</span>

ורב יוסף אמר אפי' הרב שמחל על כבודו כבודו מחול שנאמר (שמות יג, כא) ויי' הולך לפניהם יומם אמר רבא הכי השתא התם הקדוש ב"ה עלמא דיליה הוא ותורה דיליה היא מחיל ליה ליקריה

But teach it thus: If [criminals condemned] to be stoned are mixed up with [others sentenced] to burning. Said he to him, If so, consider the second clause: But the Sages say: They are executed by burning, because stoning is severer. But why particularly because stoning is severer: deduce it from the fact that the majority are to be burnt? - There, he answered him, the Rabbis oppose<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'say to'.');">²¹</span> R'Simeon: As to what you say that burning is severer, that is not so, stoning being severer. Said Samuel to Rab Judah: Keen scholar!<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Others translate: man of long teeth, v. B.K. (Sonc. ed.) p. 60, n. 1.');">²²</span> speak not thus to your father. For it was taught: If one's father is [unwittingly] transgressing a precept of the Torah, he must not say to him, 'Father, thou transgressest a Biblical precept', but, 'Father, it is thus written in the Torah.' 'It is thus wri the Torah' - but he surely grieves him?<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' For it is the same as telling him that he is transgressing.');">²³</span> But he must say to him, 'Father, such and such a verse Is written in the Torah.'<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Not directly stating the law, but leaving it for his father to understand. This does not shame him.');">²⁴</span> Eleazar B'Mathia said: If my father orders me, 'Give me a drink of water', while I have a precept to perform, I disregard<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Lit., 'lay aside'.');">²⁵</span> my father's honour and perform the precept, since both my father and I are bound to fulfil the precepts. Issi B'Judah maintained: If the precept can be performed by others, it should be performed by others, while he should bestir himself for his father's honour. Said R'Mattena: The halachah agrees with Issi B'Judah. R'Isaac B'Shila said in R'Mattena's name in the name of R'Hisda: If a father renounces the honour due to him, it is renounced; but if a Rabbi renounces his honour, it is not renounced. R'Joseph ruled: Even if a Rabbi renounces his honour, it is renounced, for it is said: And the Lord went before them by day.<span class="x" onmousemove="('comment',' Ex. XIII, 21. Thus the Almighty renounced His honour and constituted Himself their Guide.');">²⁶</span> Said Raba: How compare! There, with respect to the Holy One, blessed be He, the world is His and the Torah is His; [hence] He can forego His honour.